NFL Simulation Rules in the Works

[Valdarez]

I spent last night going through all the posts about Sim games, and Sim rules. I am putting together an official page to house all of the Sim rules. If anyone has other Sim rules that they would definitely like to see, the please post them here. The Sim rules page will be a complete list of rules to play a true NFL style game. Hopefully the Sim rules will serve as a foundation for all of us to agree to and as a starting point for Sim leagues. At the very least, for Sim leagues, the NFL Simulation Rules will serve as a starting point. Rules will be broken down into categories and numbered. League Commissioners will be able to copy/paste the rules, add additional rules, or simply indicate the rule #'s they don't want to abide by in their league.

Please help with this endeavor by posting NFL Simulation Style Rules here.

Thanks!

[BoiseCowboys]

This will never work... everyone has their own "rules" on whats sim or unsim, this will just end up being an argument thread!

[acoosticant]

Here is what I think you should do. Compile a list of all the sim rules submitted. List them on the forum and then have each member of the league vote for each individual rule. I know it is a stretch, but that is the only way you will separate those griping about somethign stupid and those who have legitimate concerns.

[Valdarez]

Argue all you want, I'll take the rules listed here, compare them to my knowledge of the NFL and then post them as Simulation if I believe them to be. This will then be a NFL Simulation Style Rule Set that can be used as a 'starting point' for anyone that wants to play NFL simulation style football in a league or game. League commissions can modify the rule set at their behest for their league. It's not the be all end all rule set. It's just a nice starting point for everyone. At the very least it can serve as a foundation for Sim play.

[SD21]

This will never work... everyone has their own "rules" on whats sim or unsim, this will just end up being an argument thread!

Agreed :dance:

[COQUISTADOR]

This will never work... everyone has their own "rules" on whats sim or unsim, this will just end up being an argument thread!


I agree. Earlier when the game came out I posted possible rules for playing sim style football and got grieve over it.

[Valdarez]

Nothing wrong with arguing. This rule set will only serve as a starting point.

I'm in software development, and there is this development process called the Rational Unified Development process. It has literally hundred of activities and artifacts that can be used during the development of software. Some people try to use all of the activities and artifacts for a project only to fail because they did not need all of them. Everything in the RUP is not meant to be used! It's meant to be tailored. In other words, take and use what you need in order to be successful.

Hopefully the same thing can be applied here. I'll get every possible NFL style rule down. Then players can take that rule set, modify it for their league, and play their league based on the rules they have chosen. At least this way there will be an official set of rules so their is no confusion as to what 'Sim Style Play' means for a particular league.

NOTE: It is not a be all rule set. It's a rule set to serve as a starting point for NFL Sim Style league play. Add rules, remove rules, modify rules to suite the Sim Style of play your league wishes to abide and play by.

[acoosticant]

Fanthom, do that if you wish but if I can offer you some widsom from experience:

If you play the dictator and just make the rules you see fit, then you isolate everyone else in the league. People will believe in something if they feel they took part in the creation. If you want people to support and approve of the rules, you should open it up to a general vote. That way, no one feels like they are being dictated to and makes it much more diffucult for someone to argue over a rule.

If one person creates a rule, there really isn't a whole lot of validity to it if people challenge it. However, if the rules were agreed upon by a majority of the participants, and then someone challenges, you can say, "look, a majority of the people in the league voted for this. this is want most people want."

[COQUISTADOR]

Here was my previous posting about sim rules. Tell me what you think.

.................................................. .................................................. ...................
My brothers and I have come up with some rules we follow during the course of the game. (These rules can be followed playing any football video game on any console). We came up with these rules in order to make the game more realistic and respectable. The rules are simple but even though some might not agree with them and would not consider them (sim) they are still "sim conscious" and would guarantee a good overall experience. The rules are the following.

1. You could go for it only if it is 4th down and less than 3 yards. If not you have to punt it away or attempt a field goal.

2. In conjunction to Rule # 1 you can only go for it in the 4th Quarter. For example if it is 4th and 7, in the 4th Quarter it is ok to go for it and attempt to get the first down.

3. No created players. (This eliminates the use of 7-foot defensive backs, etc.) Also, players must play their appropriate positions. No substitution of a wide receiver as a TE.

4. There is a 21-point mercy rule. If you are losing by 21 points the game is over.

5. No onside kicks. (Unless it is in the 4th Quarter.)

6. No field goal glitches. If you use them during the course of the game you will automatically lose. Also, violation of any of the above rules would lead to disqualification.

7. Anything else goes. If you want to line up and run the ball all the time or pass every play, so be it. It is up to the opponent to stop you.

8. Finally, if the game for whatever reason freezes, the game continues right where it left off. This includes the score and the time left. If there were any players that were hurt during the course of the game, once you continue same, they cannot be used. (Example: If you running back was hurt, you must substitute him out once the game continues.)

What do you guys think? Any feedback is welcome.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Taking the young pups to school each and every day!!!!

[ScottyP]

The problem isn't with "sim rules" per se, but with the shades of gray.

For instance, some people will say that going for it on 4th unless it is inside 2 minutes or towards the end of the game isn't sim. However, NFL teams go for it on 4th and short SOMETIMES. If it's all the time, then I agree, it isn't sim, but once in awhile should be fine. People can't agree on this.

As long as the game that I'm playing resembles a football game and the other player doesn't run their HB 95% of the game or call the same call every single play, I'm cool with it.

The only real things that bother me .... and I think others would agree ...... are:

Going for it on 4th every time.
Going for 2 after every TD.
Hurry ups after every play.
Onside kicks on every kick.

Those are things that you would never see in a real game. On occasion, yes. All the time, no.

[BoiseCowboys]

An example... I played someone last night that would motion, hot route, and audible on offense endlessly while using QB cadence 'tl the playclock reached 1. He used all 6 of his timeouts because the playclock was running down while he was audibling or shifting. Or he would take a delay of game penalty. It was the longest and most boring game I've every played. Some people might call this "unsim" but others would argue Peyton Manning does this all the time.

[acoosticant]

I think scottyp and conquestador made good contributions and their logic makes sense. However, for this league, I think it needs to go beyond just play style and cover player creation and what is allowed.

[Valdarez]

Thanks conquistador. I actually found the thread that was in last night. :)

[Valdarez]

I think scottyp and conquestador made good contributions and their logic makes sense. However, for this league, I think it needs to go beyond just play style and cover player creation and what is allowed.This thread has nothing to do with our league. This is simply focusing on a NFL Sim Style Rule Set.

[COQUISTADOR]

You are welcome. I am totally okay with playing by some type of rules. It makes the games feel more realistic. The problem is finding those to follow the rules and discipline in not breaking them when you are losing.

[acoosticant]

This thread has nothing to do with our league. This is simply focusing on a NFL Sim Style Rule Set.

Well then in that case, I agree with the original posters, this will never work. Who says you or anyone else (and I'm just asking) is qualified to make final decisions on this matter? You are never going to get people to agree that any one person is qualfied or impartial enough to make any kind of decisions on this matter unless you stick with just the very basics that have already been posted.

[Valdarez]

Well then in that case, I agree with the original posters, this will never work. Who says you or anyone else (and I'm just asking) is qualified to make final decisions on this matter? You are never going to get people to agree that any one person is qualfied or impartial enough to make any kind of decisions on this matter unless you stick with just the very basics that have already been posted.Please read the whole thread acoosticant. It's not final. The whole point is to have a rule set that can be used a starting point for NFL Simulation style play.

[acoosticant]

Please read the whole thread acoosticant. It's not final. The whole point is to have a rule set that can be used a starting point for NFL Simulation style play.


Which is why I said that if you stick with the very basics, you won't have a problem.

[COQUISTADOR]

Which is why I said that if you stick with the very basics, you won't have a problem.


What do you mean by basics. :rolleyes:

[acoosticant]

What do you mean by basics. :rolleyes:

1. You could go for it only if it is 4th down and less than 3 yards. If not you have to punt it away or attempt a field goal.

2. In conjunction to Rule # 1 you can only go for it in the 4th Quarter. For example if it is 4th and 7, in the 4th Quarter it is ok to go for it and attempt to get the first down.

3. No created players. (This eliminates the use of 7-foot defensive backs, etc.) Also, players must play their appropriate positions. No substitution of a wide receiver as a TE.

4. There is a 21-point mercy rule. If you are losing by 21 points the game is over.

5. No onside kicks. (Unless it is in the 4th Quarter.)

6. No field goal glitches. If you use them during the course of the game you will automatically lose. Also, violation of any of the above rules would lead to disqualification.

7. Anything else goes. If you want to line up and run the ball all the time or pass every play, so be it. It is up to the opponent to stop you.

8. Finally, if the game for whatever reason freezes, the game continues right where it left off. This includes the score and the time left. If there were any players that were hurt during the course of the game, once you continue same, they cannot be used. (Example: If you running back was hurt, you must substitute him out once the game continues.)


[[and dont roll your eyes at me...i haven't said anything offensive or unintelligent to you]]

[COQUISTADOR]

I did not mean anything by the rolling eyes. Also, thanks for refering to my rules. :lol:

[acoosticant]

No problem ;)

the only slight, slight, problem I have with your rules is the part about players playing in their appropriate positions. This is only because in the NFL teams use players out of position from time to time for certain plays, but overall that is not a hill I am willing to die on.

[Valdarez]

The rules above will be incorporated into the rule set in some form or fashion, however this rule set will be a little more detailed. It's not final though, commissioners can take it and modify it for the style of play they wish to have in their league.

My goal is to help out commissioners who are running a league by giving them a list of possible rules to use in their NFL Sim style league.

The other is to make sure the rules are written down, so there is something to refer to, and there is no confusion as to what is and what is not acceptable. If you put a rule in midway through a season because a player is abusing something, then a player will feel singled out, and this is an attempt to avoid that situation by making all of the rules available for everyone from the get go.

[acoosticant]

Also Conquistador,

I would consider modifying the the 4th down rule to you may only go for it on 4th and 3 unless an actual fake punt is run. These are very hard to get but still maintain some form of surprise element on 4th downs.

[COQUISTADOR]

Let me know if you need any help. I can tweek my rules a little bit.

In regards to the position rule, what I mean is putting Jerry Rice as a TE. He never played TE in the NFL. Or putting Lott in as a linebacker when he was clearly a Safety, etc.

[COQUISTADOR]

Also Conquistador,

I would consider modifying the the 4th down rule to you may only go for it on 4th and 3 unless an actual fake punt is run. These are very hard to get but still maintain some form of surprise element on 4th downs.


I know that in the NFL they would probably punt it away. Or maybe in a situation where you are not going to take a chance at a 52 yard field goal due to lets say the wind or weather, so you say lets go for it. However, it avoids those online players who will go for it on 4th and 10.

[ScottyP]

I don't usually get involved with "making rules" for people to follow, but I'll put down what I think and people don't have to agree with me.

OK ... This should give you some ideas. This is my own feeling and REASONS why these things should happen. Some are similar to Coquistador.

4th downs - 4th and long (as in over 3 or 4 yards) is a punting or FG situation UNLESS you are losing in the 4th quarter or in that weird no mans land around the 40 yard line. No real team goes on 4th and long early in a game. It just doesn't happen.

Onside kicks - Do them at any time you like, but not excessively. Real teams sometimes throw an onside kick in at the beginning or middle of the game to try and catch the opponent offguard. If you think it might work, give it a try, but don't do it every time.

QB cadence - Everyone knows that this works too well. Use it, but try not to go crazy with it. A few offsides in a game is liveable. Offsides on every 2nd or third play isn't.

Running the ball - Run all you want, BUT not with the same back. Backs get tired, but in this game they don't get tired fast enough. If you want to run 95% of the game, that is fine, but sub in a backup after a few plays.

Passing - Pass all you want.

Subs - Use your head here. Offense on defense or vice versa is rare in the NFL. If I see it once in a game, I don't have an issue with it. I don't want to see it all game long.

*** Here is one of those gray areas that people argue about***

TE at WR, WR at TE, HB at WR. There are formations in the playbook to line up like this, but also let the other player know what personnel you have on the field. If you stick guys where they don't normally belong, the opponent has no way of knowing what personnel are truly on the field. If it says 2 TEs, but you come out with 2 gold wideouts in the TE spots, that screws the defense all up because there was no way to know that you had wideouts instead of TEs.

Bottom line - Use the playbook to set these formations up. That's what they are there for.

2 point conversions - Use them when it makes sense, not every single TD. When do you ever see an NFL team go for 2 after every score? That's what I thought.

Hurry up offense - Run it sometimes. Keep in mind that the D only has 5 pre set defenses to pick from while the offense can have dozens depending on formations and audibles. Don't run it every single time because the offensive players do not tire as quickly as they should and the defense really has no way to audible into the proper coverages.

Man in motion - Make sure the player sets ... just like real football.

QB scramble - If you see an opening, go for it.

[acoosticant]

Right...but they wouldn't go for it on 4th and 10 when they have to use a fake punt play to do it. Way too much risk on their side...And it actually gives a reason to use the most unused play in the playbook: punt defend.

[GoodSense]

I don't usually get involved with "making rules" for people to follow, but I'll put down what I think and people don't have to agree with me.

OK ... This should give you some ideas. This is my own feeling and REASONS why these things should happen. Some are similar to Coquistador.

4th downs - 4th and long (as in over 3 or 4 yards) is a punting or FG situation UNLESS you are losing in the 4th quarter or in that weird no mans land around the 40 yard line. No real team goes on 4th and long early in a game. It just doesn't happen.

Onside kicks - Do them at any time you like, but not excessively. Real teams sometimes throw an onside kick in at the beginning or middle of the game to try and catch the opponent offguard. If you think it might work, give it a try, but don't do it every time.

QB cadence - Everyone knows that this works too well. Use it, but try not to go crazy with it. A few offsides in a game is liveable. Offsides on every 2nd or third play isn't.

Running the ball - Run all you want, BUT not with the same back. Backs get tired, but in this game they don't get tired fast enough. If you want to run 95% of the game, that is fine, but sub in a backup after a few plays.

Passing - Pass all you want.

Subs - Use your head here. Offense on defense or vice versa is rare in the NFL. If I see it once in a game, I don't have an issue with it. I don't want to see it all game long.

*** Here is one of those gray areas that people argue about***

TE at WR, WR at TE, HB at WR. There are formations in the playbook to line up like this, but also let the other player know what personnel you have on the field. If you stick guys where they don't normally belong, the opponent has no way of knowing what personnel are truly on the field. If it says 2 TEs, but you come out with 2 gold wideouts in the TE spots, that screws the defense all up because there was no way to know that you had wideouts instead of TEs.

Bottom line - Use the playbook to set these formations up. That's what they are there for.

2 point conversions - Use them when it makes sense, not every single TD. When do you ever see an NFL team go for 2 after every score? That's what I thought.

Hurry up offense - Run it sometimes. Keep in mind that the D only has 5 pre set defenses to pick from while the offense can have dozens depending on formations and audibles. Don't run it every single time because the offensive players do not tire as quickly as they should and the defense really has no way to audible into the proper coverages.

Man in motion - Make sure the player sets ... just like real football.

QB scramble - If you see an opening, go for it.


Here is what I like about this post.
It points out excessiveness.
He is not saying if you kick onsides and it is not the end of the game you are cheese.
If you run hurry up your cheese.

He is talking about unrealistic use.


I don't mind hurry ups.
If a person setup their defensive aubibles right they should be fine.
Yes the defense only has 5 sets, but those 5 should be setup for various situations and not just 3-4 various blitz plays...

The cpu will try this tactic on me sometimes, and I know it saw something, but most of the time I did too or I have an idea so one of my audibles usually will handle that situation.


Realistic Sim Rules vs Too Tight Sim Rules
If people who want a SIM game would not tag people so quickly and easily I don't think a bad name is made for us and people will respect the rules a little more.

But people who think they are too tight need to realize the purpose is so people don't exploit the holes in the AI.

Someone mentioned the substitutions of various players. You can't get mad at Sim players for this because in reality there is an illegal substitution in football for the same purpose. When you sub and the screen does not properly represent your personel that is an exploit.

The game was built with packages so you can substitute and not exploit the AI.
You might not find every formation you want for each package, but there is plenty to go around.



Now get back and enjoy the game!

[xManning1018x]

Here is what I like about this post.
It points out excessiveness.
He is not saying if you kick onsides and it is not the end of the game you are cheese.
If you run hurry up your cheese.

He is talking about unrealistic use.


I don't mind hurry ups.
If a person setup their defensive aubibles right they should be fine.
Yes the defense only has 5 sets, but those 5 should be setup for various situations and not just 3-4 various blitz plays...

The cpu will try this tactic on me sometimes, and I know it saw something, but most of the time I did too or I have an idea so one of my audibles usually will handle that situation.


Realistic Sim Rules vs Too Tight Sim Rules
If people who want a SIM game would not tag people so quickly and easily I don't think a bad name is made for us and people will respect the rules a little more.

But people who think they are too tight need to realize the purpose is so people don't exploit the holes in the AI.

Someone mentioned the substitutions of various players. You can't get mad at Sim players for this because in reality there is an illegal substitution in football for the same purpose. When you sub and the screen does not properly represent your personel that is an exploit.

The game was built with packages so you can substitute and not exploit the AI.
You might not find every formation you want for each package, but there is plenty to go around.



Now get back and enjoy the game!

Great post. I agree with everything you said, and that;s hard for me to say. (Giants fan)

:lol:

[NPYYZ]

Here are the rules that were used in the last league I was in. I'll leave it to you to decided if you want to use any of them or not. They worked well for the most part. I left a few out that I felt were a bit to strict.

CONTACT INFO – edit your profile on the league web page and post a valid E-mail address where you can be reached so games can be scheduled. You may also want to post the times you are usually available to play in your profile. E-mail, Xbox 360 messaging, and here in the forums are 3 good ways to set up your games. Use them.


HEADSETS MANDATORY- All league games must be played with headsets on. You do not have to talk during the game if you do want to, but you should greet your opponent at the start of the game and always have your headset on in case any game play issues arise they can be discussed and dealt with then and there. If your opponent is playing glitch or cheese ball let him know that he is not following the league rules, and tell him he needs to change his play style or be kicked from the league.

GOING FOR IT ON 4TH DOWN:
You can go for it on 4th and INCHES at any time....Leading, tied or trailing at any time in the game. Leading or Score Tied, 4th and 1+ (or greater) you MUST Punt or FG unless you are inside your opponents 10. Then you can go for the 1st down or a TD
TRAILING, 4th and 1+, you can go for it in all situations.
If they don’t do it in the NFL we shouldn’t do it here. Punt the ball.

NO HUDDLE OFFENSE:
The No Huddle can be used inside the 2 minute warnings in the half’s ONLY when TRAILING.
You can also use the no huddle when you are down by 28 or more points at any time in the game. Once you get within 14 or less, you can no longer no huddle, until the last two minutes of the half’s. If leading or tied, the no huddle is illegal.
REASON - The defense tires more quickly then the offense giving the offense an advantage after 3 consecutive hurry up plays. It’s a glitch and its cheese.

DEPTH CHART:
No moving players out of position. No WR’s lined up at TE or HB, No HB’s lined up at WR and so on. Evey player must stay in is given position.

SPORTSMANSHIP RULES:
If you have a big lead (leading by 28 points or more) please do not keep throwing the ball and run up the score. Use the running game and punt the ball if you are stopped.
Also FEEDBACK Please guys do not give your opponent bad feedback just because you lost the game. No one likes to lose, but that is certainly not a reason for bad feedback.

SHIFTS ON DEFENSE:
Shifting of players is allowed on D. But you can only use the pre-set shifts allowed in the game. You can not control a LB or Lineman and move him wide on the line pre-snap. You may move a LB manually in the defensive backfield,
as long as he is not on the line to exploit the line blocking problem with wide opponents. If you move a LB wide, stay back from the line a min of 5 yards. Inside the "box" (tackle to tackle) you may move your linebacker on the line. Again all shifts are legal. There is the "Show Blitz" option that will move your LBs to the line. This is legal even if he moves to the outside, but when the CPU does the shifting they don't move 5 yards outside
the tackle to exploit the game.

CONTROLLING A DL:
You can manually control a DL presnap. But you can not move him in any way pre-snap. Backing him up or moving him to either side manually is illegal. He can only move through the bumper shifts at the line.

GADGET PLAYS:
All Plays are legal but we are looking for SIM realistic gaming. All gadget plays are limited to a max of once per half. Plays like the flea flicker, HB option, TE or WR around the end, Double reverses, or Fake Reverses, Hail Marys, etc...You can only RUN these plays once per half. I said RUN the play once per half, not run the play successfully once per half....so if you fail at the gadget play, that still counts as your one try per half. This
especially includes one hail mary per half....you cant keep running that at the 50 yard line near the end of the half over and over again till you get it. You get one shot with each and every gadget play per half.

NFL RECORDS - No Player can break the NFL SEASON RECORD - this means if your HB is gong to break the NFL rushing record in week 13 you must bench him for the rest of the season, same goes for WR's , TE's, Int's and sacks. This rule will keep people from going to the same guy over and over again. We all know that gold player can be hard to stop so this will force people to spread the ball around. ( I can let this rule slide as long as a person does not over use one player on his team to an extreme.)

These are not arbitrary stats. These are the all time NFL single season
records.

RB - Season attempts = 416
RB - Game Rushing Yards/Season Rushing Yards = 295/2105
RB - Season Catches = 101
RB - Rushing Season TD's = 28
RB - Total Season TD's via Rush&Catch = 31
QB - Season Rushing Yards = 1039
QB - Season Passing Attempts = 691
QB - Game Passing Yards/Season Passing Yards = 554/5084
QB - Season Passing TD's = 49
WR - Season Catches = 143
WR - Game Yards/Season Yards = 336/1848
WR - Season TD's = 22
TE - Season Catches = 102
IDP - Season Sacks = 23
IDP - Season Interceptions = 14
Punt Returner - Season TD's returning punts = 4
Kickoff Returner - Season TD's returning KO's = 4



Play SIM realistic pro football style. That's all we really ask. We all know the game of football and love it, that's why we are playing the best football game on the 360. Rules are unfortunately needed so any glitches in the game are not exploited.

It's really quite easy to have an all sim league. All players MUST pay the game the way they play it on Sundays in the NFL , and no one should exploit any known glitches.