If Ray Lewis retired this year and was in next years game what tier player would he b

[CWSpartan9]

I think it is an interesting question. He killed some people and he is injured a lot. Ill admit that he is really good, but not great. He was great for one year or two, but he was NOT a legend. I would say silver tier, possibly broze tier.

I think is charismatic personality got him a lot further than his skills on the field. Plus he looks like a Raven, that is clearly why the Ravens drafted him.

I would say silver though, not gold, and possibly bronze. I would give him run stuffer and big hit, that is it.

All of the Gold players were better than him and most of the silver players were as well.

[BofaDeezNutts]

Easily a Gold

[BenRichardSON]

I'd give him a silver, but wouldn't have a problem if he was gold.

[Reed#20]

No comment

[tpaterniti]

LOL.

Gold. He is in the decline of his career right now, but he was a beast when he played. I won't say any more because when I respond comprehensively I have a tendency to shut down threads ;)

[Njake.]

He is the best Linebacker of all time after Mike Singletary.

GOLD

[omerta07]

Easily a Gold
we agree .:thumbsup:

[kcxiv]

Honestly, this is a stupid question. He's a gold easily. He's one of the best linebackers to play the game.

[Njake.]

BenRichardSON, you have finally decided to come out of your cave and start your life over again? I know it really took a toll on you that you lost the tourney. I would be upset too, if I dedicated my whole life to that tournament and then lost.

(cant wait to see how you are going to respond) :thumbsup:

[kcxiv]

BenRichardSON, you have finally decided to come out of your cave and start your life over again? I know it really took a toll on you that you lost the tourney. I would be upset too, if I dedicated my whole life to that tournament and then lost.

(cant wait to see how you are going to respond) :thumbsup:This post really has nothing to do with APF. If i was a mod, i would have just deleted it. THis is what makes this MB hard to even look at sometimes.

[CWSpartan9]

This post really has nothing to do with APF. If i was a mod, i would have just deleted it. THis is what makes this MB hard to even look at sometimes.

Someone is in a bad mood.

[Hotsuma]

There goes B-Rich

http://gamestudies.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/1008_jenkins_3.jpg

[Titans_Matt]

Silver or Gold, no wya he is even close to a Bronze, I would probably give him Gold though

with Run Coverage, Quick Feet, Big Hit, Ball Hawk, Leadership Bonus
because those were proabably the 5 things he was best at

[amid]

Ray Lewis is a 1st ballot Hall of Famer. Decline? This year he is better than 90% of the other LBs and he is playing with only one good arm. He is a gold among golds.

[YungFresh]

I have to agree with amid RAY LEWIS IS A GOLD ALL DAY!! give him Run coverage, Leadership bonus,Big Hit,Wrap Up Tackler,Closing Speed

[Valdarez]

This post really has nothing to do with APF. If i was a mod, i would have just deleted it. THis is what makes this MB hard to even look at sometimes.I have to agree, 2k is extremely lenient on what is allowed posted on their boards. It's run more like a fan site than a company site. Heck, there's stuff I posted, that if I were a mod, I would have locked or deleted.

[kcxiv]

Someone is in a bad mood.
it isnt me, but its a stupid question. lol One of the best linebackers of all time a silver? give me a break.

[bigj79]

Ray Lewis is definitely a gold star player. Even though he's been through some injuries, he is still one of the most feared linebackers in the game today. Many RBs were asked who they feared facing the most on Sunday. Guess who name popped up?

[Hartland Gators]

Gold without a doubt man I would give him Run Coverage, Quick Feet, Big Hit, Ball Hawk, Leadership Bonus, Run Reader and Wrap up Tackler

[reppin 626]

Gold without a doubt man I would give him Run Coverage, Quick Feet, Big Hit, Ball Hawk, Leadership Bonus, Run Reader and Wrap up Tackler
fix your sig, who is too tall thomas??? dont you mean too tall JONES?

[Hartland Gators]

No...It's someone I created DUMMY SLAP!!

[reppin 626]

No...It's someone I created DUMMY SLAP!!
how was anyone suposed to know that? is he a 7 foot tall WR?

[Hartland Gators]

Nope 6'7 LB don't try to correct me next time ASK me if I meant Too Tall Jones

[YungFresh]

U told dat *****

[Entiel]

we agree .:thumbsup:


We a-three!!!!! :D

[BenRichardSON]

BenRichardSON, you have finally decided to come out of your cave and start your life over again? I know it really took a toll on you that you lost the tourney. I would be upset too, if I dedicated my whole life to that tournament and then lost.

(cant wait to see how you are going to respond) :thumbsup:
Grow up :rolleyes:.

But, anyways... Ray Lewis was not always good, that's why I would say Silver. Most of the Gold players were great their WHOLE CAREER. Ray Lewis is/was a GREAT player, but he was not always great. He is a beast when he has those huge DTs in front of him, without them, he is above average. That's the ONLY reason I say silver. I don't think alot of the other GREAT ILBs had 2 huge 330LB Pro Bowl Caliber DTs in front of him. Ray Lewis was my favorite defensive player for awhile, until I noticed the "real gold amont golds"... CHAMP BAILEY aka The Best Complete Cornerback EVER.

[Valdarez]

I don't follow the Ravens, but when exactly was Ray Lewis not good?

[BenRichardSON]

His first couple of seasons, he was OK, not Great... but... Brian Urlacher is a much better ILB I'd say.

Urlacher's first 8 Seasons in the NFL:
Career Stats Tackles Sacks Interceptions Misc
Season Team G Solo Ast Total Sack YdsL Int Yds IntTD DefTD FFum PD Sfty
2000 Chicago 16 98 26 124 8.0 49 2 19 0 0 0 5 0
2001 Chicago 16 91 27 118 6.0 37 3 60 0 1 2 8 0
2002 Chicago 16 117 36 153 4.5 34 1 0 0 0 2 7 0
2003 Chicago 16 87 29 116 2.5 15 0 0 0 0 0 4 0
2004 Chicago 9 54 18 72 5.5 19 1 42 0 0 2 7 0
2005 Chicago 16 98 24 122 6.0 44 0 0 0 0 1 5 0
2006 Chicago 16 93 49 142 0.0 0 3 38 0 0 1 9 0
2007 Chicago 3 15 5 20 3.0 23 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Career 108 653 214 867 35.5 220 10 159 0 1 8 45 0

Last updated through games completed on Sep 24, 2007

Ray Lewis thru 8 Seasons:
Career Stats Tackles Sacks Interceptions Misc
Season Team G Solo Ast Total Sack YdsL Int Yds IntTD DefTD FFum PD Sfty
1996 Baltimore 14 95 15 110 2.5 9 1 0 0 0 0 5 0
1997 Baltimore 16 156 28 184 4.0 27 1 18 0 0 1 10 0
1998 Baltimore 14 101 19 120 3.0 14 2 25 0 0 1 7 0
1999 Baltimore 16 131 37 168 3.5 21 3 97 0 0 0 8 1
2000 Baltimore 16 108 30 138 3.0 33 2 1 0 0 0 6 0
2001 Baltimore 16 114 48 162 3.5 26 3 115 0 0 1 10 0
2002 Baltimore 5 43 15 58 0.0 0 2 4 0 0 1 3 0
2003 Baltimore 16 121 42 163 1.5 11 6 99 1 1 2 14 0
2004 Baltimore 15 101 46 147 1.0 9 0 0 0 0 1 6 0
2005 Baltimore 6 38 8 46 1.0 1 1 0 0 0 0 2 0
2006 Baltimore 14 80 23 103 5.0 37 2 27 0 0 1 8 0
2007 Baltimore 3 17 6 23 0.0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0
Career 151 1105 317 1422 28.0 187 24 386 1 1 8 80 1

Last updated through games completed on Sep 24, 2007


Mike Singletary:


Michael Singletary. . .Bears’ second-round draft pick, 1981. . .Finished as team’s first or second leading tackler each of last 11 seasons. . . Career statistics: 1488 tackles (885 solo), 51 passes defensed, 12 fumble recoveries, 7 interceptions. . .All-Pro eight times, 1983-1989, 1991. . .All-NFC selection nine straight years, 1983-1991. . .Selected to ten consecutive Pro Bowls. . .Defensive Player of the Year, 1985, 1988. . . Born October 9, 1958, in Houston, Texas.

[kcxiv]

Grow up :rolleyes:.

But, anyways... Ray Lewis was not always good, that's why I would say Silver. Most of the Gold players were great their WHOLE CAREER. Ray Lewis is/was a GREAT player, but he was not always great. He is a beast when he has those huge DTs in front of him, without them, he is above average. That's the ONLY reason I say silver. I don't think alot of the other GREAT ILBs had 2 huge 330LB Pro Bowl Caliber DTs in front of him. Ray Lewis was my favorite defensive player for awhile, until I noticed the "real gold amont golds"... CHAMP BAILEY aka The Best Complete Cornerback EVER.
Hehe, all great linebackers play with great people that surround them. Singletary tons of talent behind him. Lambert had Tons of talent with him. Not sure on Butkus. Junior Seau had alot of great players with him. As the same with Zach Thomas. I would consider all them to be gold tiered players. Urlacher right now has great players around him.


In order to really be great in this game you have to be surrounded with good football players.

[Valdarez]

It looks like Urlacher had more Sacks, but not as many tackles over his career as Lewis.

Maybe they are both Gold, and Urlacher gets Pass Rusher and Raw Lewis gets Run Coverage?

[Azn_Essence]

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/32241/five_best_linebackers_in_nfl_history.html?page=2

LT
Butkus
Lewis
Singletary
Lambert

[BenRichardSON]

The one thing that Ray Lewis was horrible at was getting off of blocks. Once you blocked him, he was NO GOOD... but when you put those HUGE 350+ lbs DTs in front of him... he was a gold, but when they aren't there he was a silver.

[Get Crazy]

LOL.

Gold. He is in the decline of his career right now, but he was a beast when he played. I won't say any more because when I respond comprehensively I have a tendency to shut down threads ;)


I thought I was the only one that thought that way ;)

[ElGreazy78]

He is deserving of a Gold Level but I stand by the idea that all HOF players should automatically be Gold while and nothing else. Players in the wait of becoming HOF'ers should be relegated to Silver until they are actually inducted.

[Reed#20]

Grow up :rolleyes:.

But, anyways... Ray Lewis was not always good, that's why I would say Silver. Most of the Gold players were great their WHOLE CAREER. Ray Lewis is/was a GREAT player, but he was not always great. He is a beast when he has those huge DTs in front of him, without them, he is above average. That's the ONLY reason I say silver. I don't think alot of the other GREAT ILBs had 2 huge 330LB Pro Bowl Caliber DTs in front of him. Ray Lewis was my favorite defensive player for awhile, until I noticed the "real gold amont golds"... CHAMP BAILEY aka The Best Complete Cornerback EVER.

Ray Lewis won Defensive MVP for the 2nd time with Kelly Gregg, Marques Douglas and Anthony Weaver in front of him in a 3-4 defense. The man has more INT's and Sacks than Singletary and will pass Singletary in tackles; has led the league in tackles 5 times and has done what Singletary and only 5 other defenders have done, won the Defensive MVP on the league twice. Easily gold. One thing that this game needs is a real physics engine. The one thing Lewis is doing that those other guys did not do. He played at a weight well above the others and move faster than all of them.

[Njake.]

Ray Lewis is easily a gold. Top 5 backer of all time. Period.

[Football4Life]

The one thing that Ray Lewis was horrible at was getting off of blocks. Once you blocked him, he was NO GOOD... but when you put those HUGE 350+ lbs DTs in front of him... he was a gold, but when they aren't there he was a silver.


Finally someone said something that made sense in this retarded thread.................................

[Reed#20]

Finally someone said something that made sense in this retarded thread.................................


And even that is not 100% true. Lewis isn't horrible getting off blocks. He's just not the same against the run when he has to deal with blocks. But he is still the same in coverage and still the same when he has the opportunity to blitz so I don't see how he drops to a Silver because he has to deal with blocks. You think Singletary, Butkas got off every block? Singletary had his best years when Fridge and Hampton where in front of him. Yet that goes unmentioned.

[Football4Life]

And even that is not 100% true. Lewis isn't horrible getting off blocks. He's just not the same against the run when he has to deal with blocks. But he is still the same in coverage and still the same when he has the opportunity to blitz so I don't see how he drops to a Silver because he has to deal with blocks. You think Singletary, Butkas got off every block? Singletary had his best years when Fridge and Hampton where in front of him. Yet that goes unmentioned.


When Singletary got blocked he GOT OFF THE BLOCK, when Ray lewis gets blocked, he gets engulfed in the entire block, he gets driven back and he looks like a lil kid with his hands flailing around for help. Just watch some film of both and see the difference. When Singletary coached the Ravens LB's for those years the main point he stressed was how Lewis needed to attack blockers. He's a gold either way though

[HeavensFinest]

I think it is an interesting question. He killed some people and he is injured a lot. Ill admit that he is really good, but not great. He was great for one year or two, but he was NOT a legend. I would say silver tier, possibly broze tier.

I think is charismatic personality got him a lot further than his skills on the field. Plus he looks like a Raven, that is clearly why the Ravens drafted him.

I would say silver though, not gold, and possibly bronze. I would give him run stuffer and big hit, that is it.

All of the Gold players were better than him and most of the silver players were as well.


You are straight up TRIPPING. He has been overall as good as or better than all of the linebackers on this game and in real life. I won't call him the best but he aint a far second from anyone. By the way you need to retract that line "he killed some people". You have some issues.

[HeavensFinest]

When Singletary got blocked he GOT OFF THE BLOCK, when Ray lewis gets blocked, he gets engulfed in the entire block, he gets driven back and he looks like a lil kid with his hands flailing around for help. Just watch some film of both and see the difference. When Singletary coached the Ravens LB's for those years the main point he stressed was how Lewis needed to attack blockers. He's a gold either way though

When Singletary coached the Ravens they played a 3-4. Singletary played in a 4-3 and his lineman kept the blockers off of him all day. In fact his linemen were superior to the Ravens linemen and were much more of a threat to make plays themselves. However when Lewis played in the 4-3 scheme NO LINEBACKER disrupted anyones offense anymore than Ray Lewis did. He is gold for sure. One of the best EVER. Not today but for his career.

[xManning1018x]

Ray Lewis is a gold. You could tear his arms off and he would still be a gold.

Ray Lewis>Chuck Norris.

[HeavensFinest]

Grow up :rolleyes:.

But, anyways... Ray Lewis was not always good, that's why I would say Silver. Most of the Gold players were great their WHOLE CAREER. Ray Lewis is/was a GREAT player, but he was not always great. He is a beast when he has those huge DTs in front of him, without them, he is above average. That's the ONLY reason I say silver. I don't think alot of the other GREAT ILBs had 2 huge 330LB Pro Bowl Caliber DTs in front of him. Ray Lewis was my favorite defensive player for awhile, until I noticed the "real gold amont golds"... CHAMP BAILEY aka The Best Complete Cornerback EVER.


You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Lewis was MVP without those guys in front of him. Please don't compare him to Singletary because Mike played his whole career in the 4-3 or Bear. Ray has not. Mike Singletary also had about 9 other superstar players on defense. Not that Ray has not had help but he certainly didn't have a Ricahrd Dent, or Dan Hampton on the line either. By the way Champ Bailey is not the most complete corner ever either. You need to watch some films or something. Mike Haynes, Mel Blount Rod Woodson were all better than him. You didn't pass or run to their side. Complete.

[xManning1018x]

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Lewis was MVP without those guys in front of him. Please don't compare him to Singletary because Mike played his whole career in the 4-3 or Bear. Ray has not. Mike Singletary also had about 9 other superstar players on defense. Not that Ray has not had help but he certainly didn't have a Ricahrd Dent, or Dan Hampton on the line either. By the way Champ Bailey is not the most complete corner ever either. You need to watch some films or something. Mike Haynes, Mel Blount Rod Woodson were all better than him. You didn't pass or run to their side. Complete.

You forgot Herb Adderley. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who has even heard of the guy.

[BenRichardSON]

You have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Lewis was MVP without those guys in front of him. Please don't compare him to Singletary because Mike played his whole career in the 4-3 or Bear. Ray has not. Mike Singletary also had about 9 other superstar players on defense. Not that Ray has not had help but he certainly didn't have a Ricahrd Dent, or Dan Hampton on the line either. By the way Champ Bailey is not the most complete corner ever either. You need to watch some films or something. Mike Haynes, Mel Blount Rod Woodson were all better than him. You didn't pass or run to their side. Complete.
Are you kidding me!?!? LOL, you can't be serious... Ray Lewis has BEEN SURROUNDED BY TALENT HIS WHOLE CAREER, to even hint that he hasnt is plain dumb. He won the MVP in 2000, when they had what I think was the most talent on one defense EVER. You don't need dominant DTs to be a great ILB, you need BIG GUYS THAT DO THEIR JOBS. Ray Lewis had that, and when he did not, boy he was not that good at all. In 2000 they ran the 4-3 with Siragusa and Sam Adams, both who were 330+ lbs. Lets not forget about Mike McCrary, Peter Boulware, Rod Woodson, Chris McAlister, Duane Starks, Kim Herring, etc. I am NOT saying Ray Lewis isn't a GREAT MLB, but he is FAR from the best. And that's what the GOLD players in 2k represent. No matter who was in front of them, they dominated no matter the situation, Ray Lewis was moreso a product of his enviroment(even while still putting up great numbers). And even in 2003 he still had huge DTs in front of him, so with all that, you dont know what the **** YOU are talking about.

Mike Haynes is better!? The same one with 46 INTs? While Champ is already at 41? The other 2 can be debated, but Mike Haynes = lol.

[Njake.]

Give it your all, because that's all you can give.
I am going to steal that quote and put a patent on it. If that is even possible.

[Entiel]

Lewis is still Gold. . .Golds can have *****s in thier armour.

[Reed#20]

Are you kidding me!?!? LOL, you can't be serious... Ray Lewis has BEEN SURROUNDED BY TALENT HIS WHOLE CAREER, to even hint that he hasnt is plain dumb. He won the MVP in 2000, when they had what I think was the most talent on one defense EVER. You don't need dominant DTs to be a great ILB, you need BIG GUYS THAT DO THEIR JOBS. Ray Lewis had that, and when he did not, boy he was not that good at all. In 2000 they ran the 4-3 with Siragusa and Sam Adams, both who were 330+ lbs. Lets not forget about Mike McCrary, Peter Boulware, Rod Woodson, Chris McAlister, Duane Starks, Kim Herring, etc. I am NOT saying Ray Lewis isn't a GREAT MLB, but he is FAR from the best. And that's what the GOLD players in 2k represent. No matter who was in front of them, they dominated no matter the situation, Ray Lewis was moreso a product of his enviroment(even while still putting up great numbers). And even in 2003 he still had huge DTs in front of him, so with all that, you dont know what the **** YOU are talking about.

Mike Haynes is better!? The same one with 46 INTs? While Champ is already at 41? The other 2 can be debated, but Mike Haynes = lol.


So how do you account for him winning Defensive MVP in 2003 when he didn't have Adams and Sarigusa but Kelly Gregg, Anthony Weaver and Marques Douglas. He was on a defensive MVP pace in 2002 as well before he went down with the shoulder injury with that same Dline (64 tackles in 4 games). He was in 3-4 and Gregg was the biggest lineman at 305 max, beginning of the season but around 290 at the end.

[Reed#20]

Lewis is still Gold. . .Golds can have *****s in thier armour.


All of them did/do, with the exception of LT I think. LT was beyond gold. This fool was platinum. What does it matter anyways, VC doesn't have them playing like they do in real life so gold/silver ect is only a label :(

[BenRichardSON]

Can you read? IF the answer is yes... work on your comprehension skills. If the answer is no, then learn to read.

[Njake.]

Just because he was surrounded by talent, doesnt mean he isnt good. He has always been the face of that defense.

[Reed#20]

Lewis most likely won't retire anyways, but guys who possible could are

Mike Strahan
Brett Favre
Jonathan Ogden

All easily gold's.

Curtis Martin hung it up so he would be a good guy to bring in. Gold RB IMO. Jerome Bettis is another, but I'd say gold too. The #4 and #5 all time leading rushers, gotta be gold's.

[Njake.]

what does IMO mean anyway?

And I could understand Favre retiring because he wants to go out with a superbowl ring.

READ MY SIGNATURE! THIS IS THE YEAR OF THE PACK

GO PACK GO! GO PACK GO! CHEESEHEADS UNITE!

[tpaterniti]

Well as (what I would consider) an extremely knowledgable Ravens fan, the comparison between Lewis and Singletary is apt because Singletary coached Lewis for several years until he left with Nolan to go to San Francisco. Ray Lewis should be a Gold. The argument about good players around him goes for everyone who has ever played the game. The simple fact is good coaches need good players to win, and good players need other good players to maximize their potential. I could give countless examples of this. Ray Lewis had Tony Siragusa, Sam Adams and Michael McCrary; well Singletary had The Fridge, Dan Hampton, and Richard Dent. Lewis had Boulware and Jamie Sharper; Singletary had Wilbur Marshall and Otis Wilson.

Lewis' skills should be first of all Leadership. He is undeniably the leader of that team. He has been almost from the minute he set foot on the field, and he will be until he leaves or retires.

Second he should have Pass Rush Bonus because despite how many sacks he does or does not get in a given year, the man can get after the QB. A lot of times he is not called on to blitz, but he can do it with the best of them when he is called on to do so.

Third I would give him Run Reader but not Run Coverage. He is good at diagnosing the play, but can be hesitant at time to really do the dirt work Singletary did to cover the run the way he needs to.

Fourth I think you have to give him either Ball Hawk or Coverage Bonus. Maybe Ball Hawk whereas I would give Urlacher (the former safety) Coverage Bonus. But I think you could justify giving Ray either one.

Finally, I would give him either Wrap Up Tackler or Big Hit. I would go with Wrap Up Tackler because he is pretty consistently a great tackler.

I could see you replacing either the Pass Rush or the Ball Hawk with Strength Bonus.

But if I could give him every attribute he deserves, I would give him:

Quick Feet
Strength Bonus
Leadership
Clutch
Run Reader
Wrap Up Tackler
Ball Hawk
Pass Rush Bonus

Anytime you can think of all the atributes a guy deserves and come up with 5 or more, he is probably a Gold.

Here is a great video about Mike Singletary and Ray Lewis for those who are interested.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwE-0atpysQ

[BenRichardSON]

I'd give him BIG HIT over Wrap Up Tackler... Everytime I see that man touch someone it was usually bad for the person being hit LOL.

[Entiel]

That video was awesome!!! Thanks TPat!!!

[HeavensFinest]

Are you kidding me!?!? LOL, you can't be serious... Ray Lewis has BEEN SURROUNDED BY TALENT HIS WHOLE CAREER, to even hint that he hasnt is plain dumb. He won the MVP in 2000, when they had what I think was the most talent on one defense EVER. You don't need dominant DTs to be a great ILB, you need BIG GUYS THAT DO THEIR JOBS. Ray Lewis had that, and when he did not, boy he was not that good at all. In 2000 they ran the 4-3 with Siragusa and Sam Adams, both who were 330+ lbs. Lets not forget about Mike McCrary, Peter Boulware, Rod Woodson, Chris McAlister, Duane Starks, Kim Herring, etc. I am NOT saying Ray Lewis isn't a GREAT MLB, but he is FAR from the best. And that's what the GOLD players in 2k represent. No matter who was in front of them, they dominated no matter the situation, Ray Lewis was moreso a product of his enviroment(even while still putting up great numbers). And even in 2003 he still had huge DTs in front of him, so with all that, you dont know what the **** YOU are talking about.

Mike Haynes is better!? The same one with 46 INTs? While Champ is already at 41? The other 2 can be debated, but Mike Haynes = lol.


I never said he didn't have talent around him. I am a Ravens fan through and through but even I can say that individually the 85 Bears had more individual talent on their defensive line than the Ravens defense had. I loved Mike McCrary. He was a beast. He was not quite Richard Dent though. Close but not quite. Now while Siragusa and Adams were big. They were not not Dan Hampton and The Fridge together. When you say that Ray was only good when he had the big guys in front of him I am comparing that situation. By the way when was Singletary MVP without those "good people" in front him? Lewis was once and should have been twice if it were not for an injury. With that being said I like the Bears lb crew but I will take my Ravens crew of Boulware, Lewis and Sharper. As far as interceptions and Mike Haynes. You obviously are a youngster and don't know squat about the legends. You don't know much about football either. Deion Sanders is not the all time leader in interceptions because people stopped throwing his way. They stopped throwing Haynes way a long time ago. Watch some film footage before you open your pie hole about things you don't know about. Haynes was the BEST cornerback on the Raiders team when they won the superbowl. Not Lester Hayes. Think about it .....DOOFUS. That is why teams chose to go towards Hayes rather than Haynes. To quote Howie Long "when Haynes came to the Raiders in mid-season he was able to shutdown the entire side of the field". Haynes was todays corner years ago. Tall, fast, cover skills and he could tackle. Like you the makers of the game have downplayed his capabilities. You don't know squat about real football.

[BrandH]

I think it is an interesting question. He killed some people and he is injured a lot.
Who did he kill? Did I miss something in the last week?

[LATECH06]

Ray Lewis would be a gold in this game. He is still the most dominating LB in the NFL.

[HeavensFinest]

You forgot Herb Adderley. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one who has even heard of the guy.

I did forget Herb. Another corner better than Champ. A lot of it is due to the fact that todays fans see the spectaculer highlights on ESPN and don't know that those were regular plays for these guys. Another one....Darrell Green.

[Bowdown]

He would be another Greg Lloyd Silver.

Silver
Bettis
Strahan

Gold
Brett Favre
Jonathan Ogden
C. Martin
Deon Sanders

[HeavensFinest]

He would be another Greg Lloyd Silver.

Silver
Bettis
Strahan

Gold
Brett Favre
Jonathan Ogden
C. Martin
Deon Sanders


Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. You are Wrongo!

[Bowdown]

Ray Lewis had done what? Help kill somebody and Win a SB? Thats it, his a great player but not Gold.

That D sucks right now, you know why?

[HeavensFinest]

That D sucks right now, you know why?
__________________
Bowdown



Because you aren't on it? You are not even worth a response. By your own stupid admission he is a great player and he has won a SB. Add another doofus to the pile.

[tpaterniti]

Herb Adderly but also Mel Blount. Maybe a more protoypical complete corner than Herb. It is difficult to stack legends up with modern players because I think that for the most part todays players are faster and stronger, although that is not to say that players of yesteryear wouldn't have been good today (this is like the whole Babe Ruth argument. Sure he was good, but he was taking 80-85 mph fastballs every pitch. If he batted in the MLB now he wouldn't even have been as good as A Rod IMO). Maybe what I am saying is there is more depth today. Now we have many more schools that have serious athletes and the NFL has a larger pool to draw from. I think that the top players of yesteryear would still be top players today; the difference is I think the #2, 3, 4 WRs on teams today are a lot better than they were back then. So how does Champ compare to Mike Haynes? Who knows. I do know that when asked, WRs almost unanimously pick Champ as the toughest, best, and most complete player they have to go against, and DBs consistantly pick Steve Smith as the guy that makes them the most nervous.

BTW the Ravens D sucks right now because Chris McAlister is not as consistant as he should be, Samai Rolle is good at covering the run but not as good at covering the pass anymore, because they got rid of Adalius Thomas, because of defensive playcalling (in week one on several plays they had Bart Scott matched up on Houshmanzadeh or Ed Reed on Chad Johnson- ?????), and frankly because of an ineffective offense that turns the ball over. When you can score points, you give your D time to rest, sure, but you also force your opponent into more predictable situations where they have to pass it more, and this makes probably the biggest difference. When you turn the ball over, on the other hand, your defense stays on the field forever, the opponent gets the ball with great field position every time, and they are always free to use their entire playbook or to pound it out with the run when they are ahead.

And how about the Chargers, firing a 12-2 coach.

BRILLIANT

http://www.mustangmods.com/data/10900/brilliant.jpg

[Njake.]

I am glad Im not a Charger fan

IM A PACKER FAN! 4-0 BABY! 4-0

GO PACK GO! GO PACK GO!

BEARS SUCK 1-3 LOLOLOLOLOL

[Reed#20]

It's funny. I agree the D sucks right now, but when we say that it's always in comparison to something else. And right now even though that D sucks it is still one of the better units in the league. Still the #1 rush defense. The have fallen due to alot of injuries. Rolle is out and MIGHT not be able to come back period, and not just this year either. Pryce is out until the Steeler game thus the pass rush has fallen on hard times. The guys taking Rolle's place do not know the defense that well. Combine a hampered secondary with a pass rush that went south and we have a problem. But still one of the better units in the league lol.

[HeavensFinest]

Hey tpaterniti, I understand that you may be as big a Ravens fan as I am. I hope they turn the ship around soon.

[Valdarez]

And how about the Chargers, firing a 12-2 coach. BRILLIANTWasn't that 14-2?

[HeavensFinest]

Yes they were 14-2. Tpaterniti, I agree that todays athletes(players) are bigger, stronger and faster but I am not so sure about them being more skilled. I personally think they depend on their physical capabilities so much that they do not pay enough attention to detail and fundamentals so that they are not maximising their true potential. For instance a guy like Randy Moss works hard when he wants to and when he does he is one of the best. A guy like Raymond Berry worked hard all the time win, lose or draw. Jerry Rice, Paul Warfield those guys were skilled not just superior athletes (even though Rice wasn't a speedster). I think Champ is a great CB. I really do. I just don't agree that he is the most complete ever or best ever. I believe there are some athletes who transcend their times. They would be great in any era. Jim Brown would be a dominant back in the league today in my opinion. When I watch todays game their are a few players who I think are great but only a few.

[tpaterniti]

I am a big Ravens fan. I also hope they turn it around. That loss to the Browns was pretty disgraceful. I am sure they are crushed by that. Especially knowing that there are several payers (Jamal Lewis and Gary Baxter and some practice squad guys) and the GM (Phil Savage) who used to be on the Ravens oven in Cleveland now. At least they seem to have a more healthy relationship with the Browns than the Pats have with their former coaches on the Jets. Magini should worry about himself and not about the Patriots.

[HeavensFinest]

I have been following the Ravens since the Browns moved there. I try to go to at least 5 games a year. I live in Columbus, Ohio. Both games I went to we lost this year, So I am now hesitant to go to anymore. LOL. I usually come to BMore for the Steelers and Browns game. You ever attend any games?

[Rhode Island]

"Show me a corner who can tackle and Ill show you corner who cant cover". - Deion Sanders


Greatest Corner of all time.

[BenRichardSON]

I never said he didn't have talent around him. I am a Ravens fan through and through but even I can say that individually the 85 Bears had more individual talent on their defensive line than the Ravens defense had. I loved Mike McCrary. He was a beast. He was not quite Richard Dent though. Close but not quite. Now while Siragusa and Adams were big. They were not not Dan Hampton and The Fridge together. When you say that Ray was only good when he had the big guys in front of him I am comparing that situation. By the way when was Singletary MVP without those "good people" in front him? Lewis was once and should have been twice if it were not for an injury. With that being said I like the Bears lb crew but I will take my Ravens crew of Boulware, Lewis and Sharper. As far as interceptions and Mike Haynes. You obviously are a youngster and don't know squat about the legends. You don't know much about football either. Deion Sanders is not the all time leader in interceptions because people stopped throwing his way. They stopped throwing Haynes way a long time ago. Watch some film footage before you open your pie hole about things you don't know about. Haynes was the BEST cornerback on the Raiders team when they won the superbowl. Not Lester Hayes. Think about it .....DOOFUS. That is why teams chose to go towards Hayes rather than Haynes. To quote Howie Long "when Haynes came to the Raiders in mid-season he was able to shutdown the entire side of the field". Haynes was todays corner years ago. Tall, fast, cover skills and he could tackle. Like you the makers of the game have downplayed his capabilities. You don't know squat about real football.
All these corners you are naming played in the good ol physical days of football. Champ is dominant even with all these rules to help the offense. Mel Blount would literally throw people to the ground damn near everyplay, let's see him try that Bump Master in today's game... penalty ALL DAY LONG! I am done talking to you, after watching you play 2k, I should have none you know nothing about true football. And then to add your little personal insults makes it even less credible, child.

[HeavensFinest]

All these corners you are naming played in the good ol physical days of football. Champ is dominant even with all these rules to help the offense. Mel Blount would literally throw people to the ground damn near everyplay, let's see him try that Bump Master in today's game... penalty ALL DAY LONG! I am done talking to you, after watching you play 2k, I should have none you know nothing about true football. And then to add your little personal insults makes it even less credible, child.


What are you talking about? After playing me? We played twice. I won one you won one. In todays game you are still allowed to jam the reciver in the first 5 yards. Secondly you said he was the most complete, I take that to mean tackler as well as cover guy. The guys I named were better than him. Haynes was better than him all the way around. Don't get your panties bunched up because you aren't old enough or informed enought to know. Calling me a child....hahah I am sure I am old enough to be your Dad. But I couldn't be because I've never had a whiny daughter.

[Njake.]

RIIIIICHARRRD! Dont back talk him. He is the finest of the heavens. Thow shall not disobey the finest of the heavens. Dont you remember?

[HeavensFinest]

You guys are a trip. You take a position and get angry because you cannot back it up with facts. It's only opinions. It's not like you have to agree with me no matter what I say. Vice Versa, I don't have to agree with you. Why it gets you so upset I don't know. i guess the art of debating is lost to some. LOL By the way tell me what I said that isn't true.

I think you have an issue with me because I was the one that pointed out your little faux pas when you claimed you were cheated by Beer30 in the tournament. In fact when the TA let you know that your loss was going to stand he/she quoted me....

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavensFinest
TA there is your admission please close this thread. The rules were plain. That is not the glitch.


Agreed. Sorry Ben but I will have to let the result stand.

TA

Don't be mad at me. I didn't make up the rules for the tourney, I just tried to make sure they applied to everyone equally....EVEN YOU.

[Njake.]

Umm, I was on your side..

[xManning1018x]

Champ Bailey is a better corner than Haynes, no doubt.

He tackles nearly as well, he's much faster, much more agile, better hands, better coverage, better returner... but he can't touch Night Train Lane a.k.a. the best cornerback of all time.

[HeavensFinest]

Champ Bailey is a better corner than Haynes, no doubt.

He tackles nearly as well, he's much faster, much more agile, better hands, better coverage, better returner... but he can't touch Night Train Lane a.k.a. the best cornerback of all time.

Nearly as well is not the same as he does it better or even the same. Champ faster? Where did you get that from? Better returner? When at Georgia? You must be dreaming. Night train was a beast at tackling and intimidating. He had very good hands no doubt. I never saw him play live only in clips so I cannot judge his ability first hand. The others I can. Mike Haynes is the most complete corner I have seen followed closely by Woodson and Blount. Herb Adderly makes and Darrell Green completes my top five. Complete corners. Greatest cover corner (solely cover ability) Primetime hands down.

[HeavensFinest]

Manning who is better Peyton or Brady. Tell me that one and why.

[xManning1018x]

Manning who is better Peyton or Brady. Tell me that one and why.

Peyton Manning.

1. Stronger arm.

2. More accurate arm.

3. Laser Rocket Arm.

4. Quicker release.

5. Harder to sack/tackle.

6. More intimidating. He's like a Butkus, but way more popular.

7. Taller.

8. A "legal" signal stealer :p

9. He is in 72% of America's commercials for a reason, ya know.

10. He's a big time film junkie. Brady spends his time banging models.

11. His crazy audibles confuse even the most adept defenders.

12. Southern accent. 'Nuff said.

Brady hasn't had a great supporting cast on offense like Peyton, but the Pats defense is/was amazing (although I hate to say it).

[ElGreazy78]

I'm more of a fan for Peyton but xManningx, you stated it yourself, Brady has not had as great of a supporting cast as Manning. Brady has been efficient and put up great stats all his career without the likes of a Marvin Harrison, Edjerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marcus Pollard, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, Brandon Stokley, etc etc.

There is basis for a strong arguement that Brady could be better because look at the numbers Brady is putting up now with legitimate receiving talent in Moss, Welker & Stallworth.

[xManning1018x]

I'm more of a fan for Peyton but xManningx, you stated it yourself, Brady has not had as great of a supporting cast as Manning. Brady has been efficient and put up great stats all his career without the likes of a Marvin Harrison, Edjerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Marcus Pollard, Joseph Addai, Dallas Clark, Brandon Stokley, etc etc.

There is basis for a strong arguement that Brady could be better because look at the numbers Brady is putting up now with legitimate receiving talent in Moss, Welker & Stallworth.

Damn. I just typed a three paragraph essay on Peyton, and it was deleted somehow when I tried to post it. Oh well. I'll summarize it.

- If Peyton was the QB for the Pats the last few years, how would they have fared?

- He is widely recognized as a more accurate/powerful QB

- His cast looks even better than they are because of him, look at Edge w/ Colts ypc vs. Edge with Cards ypc. Same with Addai, Stokley, etc.

- Knows the game better/more experience

- 2nd best career passer rating (behind Steve Young)

- stats far exceed Brady's, even taking inoto account personnel IMO.

- I'll post Brady's stats as soon as I can find them...

[Njake.]

You are just biased. Jerk.

[xManning1018x]

It's nice to have an intelligent conversation about football without any pointless idea bashing and what not

[xManning1018x]

Njake you ruined my moment... :p

[xManning1018x]

Tom Brady

Year Team Passing Rushing
Att Comp Yds TD Int Att Yds Avg TD
2000 NE 3 1 6 0 0 0 0 0.0 0
2001 NE 413 264 2,843 18 12 36 43 1.2 0
2002 NE 601 373 3,764 28 14 42 110 2.6 1
2003 NE 527 317 3,620 23 12 42 63 1.5 1
2004 NE 474 288 3,692 28 14 43 28 0.7 0
2005 NE 530 334 4,110 26 14 27 89 3.3 1
2006 NE 516 319 3,529 24 12 49 102 2.1 0
Total 3,064 1,896 21,564 147 78 239 435 1.5 3



Peyton Manning


Regular season

* 4,890 passes attempted
* 3,131 passes completed
* 37,586 passing yards
* 275 passing touchdowns
* 139 passes intercepted
* 92-52 record as a starter
* 35.2 passes attempted per interception
* 94.4 quarterback rating (2nd all-time)
* 7 Pro Bowl appearances[54]
* 6 All-Pro Selections


Post-season

* 475 passes attempted
* 290 passes completed
* 3,495 passing yards
* 18 passing touchdowns
* 15 passes intercepted
* 7-6 postseason record
* 31.667 passes attempted per interception

[xManning1018x]

Tom Brady has an 89.9 career QB rating

[tpaterniti]

Peyton Manning.

More intimidating. He's like a Butkus, but way more popular.



:rotfl: at all of this, especially the Peyton = Butkis line. I love Peyton and I think he is a great guy, but Tom Brady is the man. All these years Peyton has been throwing to Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark and for most of it he had Edgerrin James as well. Brady has won 3 Super Bowls with guys like Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, David Patten, and last year he almost got his team to the Superbowl with Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney, formerly the #3/4 WR on the Chargers and the Texans respectively.

[tpaterniti]

Oh and BTW, look out Peyton, because if Brady stays on the pace he is on now he will eclipse Peyton's single season TD record. OUCH!!!

And I am also LMAO at Osi Umenyiora going from 0 sacks to leading the league with 6 in a single night. E-A-G-L-E-S...

John Madden on the Eagles: "You look at last week and when you score so many points you think that maybe you should have saved some for the next week." :rotfl:

[xManning1018x]

:rotfl: at all of this, especially the Peyton = Butkis line. I love Peyton and I think he is a great guy, but Tom Brady is the man. All these years Peyton has been throwing to Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark and for most of it he had Edgerrin James as well. Brady has won 3 Super Bowls with guys like Troy Brown, Deion Branch, David Givens, David Patten, and last year he almost got his team to the Superbowl with Reche Caldwell and Jabar Gaffney, formerly the #3/4 WR on the Chargers and the Texans respectively.

Well that line was more of a joke obviously, but Peyton is still a better QB. I believe that Peyton makes his players look that damn good, and Brady just can't do that. Brady is not the reason the Patriots got to the Superbowl 3 years out of 4. He was a factor, but even Bledsoe could get that monstrous team to a Superbowl.

[xManning1018x]

Oh and BTW, look out Peyton, because if Brady stays on the pace he is on now he will eclipse Peyton's single season TD record. OUCH!!!

And I am also LMAO at Osi Umenyiora going from 0 sacks to leading the league with 6 in a single night. E-A-G-L-E-S...

John Madden on the Eagles: "You look at last week and when you score so many points you think that maybe you should have saved some for the next week." :rotfl:

What was it, like 13 sacks total or something? Just awesome.

Brady has pretty much zero chance of surpassing Peyton's record. I will honestly shave my head if he does, because I know that it ain't gonna happen.

[tpaterniti]

I will honestly shave my head if he does, because I know that it ain't gonna happen.

I am going to hold you to that. And maybe he has a small chance, but 0 chance?

[Njake.]

12 sacks to be exact.

[xManning1018x]

I am going to hold you to that. And maybe he has a small chance, but 0 chance?

He does have a small chance, but being a Colts fan I'm obligated to exaggerate. :D

[Njake.]

Njake you ruined my moment... :p


Ok, if I tell you Manning is better will you shut up? :confused: :rotfl:

[BenRichardSON]

You guys are a trip. You take a position and get angry because you cannot back it up with facts. It's only opinions. It's not like you have to agree with me no matter what I say. Vice Versa, I don't have to agree with you. Why it gets you so upset I don't know. i guess the art of debating is lost to some. LOL By the way tell me what I said that isn't true.

I think you have an issue with me because I was the one that pointed out your little faux pas when you claimed you were cheated by Beer30 in the tournament. In fact when the TA let you know that your loss was going to stand he/she quoted me....

Quote:
Originally Posted by HeavensFinest
TA there is your admission please close this thread. The rules were plain. That is not the glitch.


Agreed. Sorry Ben but I will have to let the result stand.

TA

Don't be mad at me. I didn't make up the rules for the tourney, I just tried to make sure they applied to everyone equally....EVEN YOU.
I don't have ANYTHING against you because of that tourney game. Everyone besides you knows there are more ways to block FGs everytime besides running into the crowd, but that's in the past and let's leave it there.

Champ Bailey is fast(4.34 40 this past offseason), GREAT instincts(even though they tend to hurt him sometimes.), hands out of this world(The man could play WR if he wanted too), probaly the best recovery speed Ive ever seen in my years watching football, AND he plays in the soft era of football. Yes, you can jam players within 5 yards, but you can't do the things those guys in the early 80's-late 70's did. I am all for a good debate, but calling me "Doofus" because I have my opinion is bush league. I am in no way upset because you think what you think, and it's not the same as what I think.

PS- We have played 4 times, and I am 3-1 vs you. You must have forgot about that 31-3 and 34-17 victory I had our last 2 games.

[xManning1018x]

Ok, if I tell you Manning is better will you shut up? :confused: :rotfl:

ha ha, ha..... :confused:

[HeavensFinest]

I agree that Peyton is the best of todays quarterbacks. He does a lot and he is always in control out there. He makes unbelievable throws. He is so gifted it is unreal.

[HeavensFinest]

PS- We have played 4 times, and I am 3-1 vs you. You must have forgot about that 31-3 and 34-17 victory I had our last 2 games.
__________________

I don't recall that at all. If you say you did, you did but you are right that I don't recall it. You need to learn to be less sensitive player. It's a message board. It's not the end all be all. So what I called you a Doofus. Big deal. It's not like I took your girl from you or something. Oh well I digress. Here is where we part ways.

[Reed#20]

Another guy that could retire AGAIN that I think should be a gold is Junior Seau. Before VC adds any of these guys though they need to make the gold defenders stand out more, especially against generic players.

[Tuboware67]

He is the best Linebacker of all time after Mike Singletary.

GOLD

Correction. He is the third best linebacker of all time...

1. **** Butkus
1a. Lawrence Taylor
2. Mike Singletary
3. Ray Lewis

Counts as third cuz LT and **** share number 1.

[xManning1018x]

Correction. He is the third best linebacker of all time...

1. **** Butkus
1a. Lawrence Taylor
2. Mike Singletary
3. Ray Lewis

Counts as third cuz LT and **** share number 1.

That would technically make him fourth :)

Lawrence Taylor is the best defensive player of all time IMO, he should get that numbah one spot.

[CWSpartan9]

Julius Peppers is the best defensive player of all time.

[CWSpartan9]

Correction. He is the third best linebacker of all time...

1. **** Butkus


Thats pretty funny if you ask me.

[theshiznetno1]

Julius Peppers is the best defensive player of all time.

And you are now irrelevant to this discussion.

[BofaDeezNutts]

I did forget Herb. Another corner better than Champ. A lot of it is due to the fact that todays fans see the spectaculer highlights on ESPN and don't know that those were regular plays for these guys. Another one....Darrell Green.

This gets my official stamp of approval :thumbsup:

I still remember the days when we (the redskins) had Smoot, Bailey, and Green in the same defensive back field. Those were great times for the defense.

[HeavensFinest]

Darrell Green was an absolute beast. I would venture to say that at least a third if not more of his interceptions were thrown to people that he was not covering. His reaction time and speed to get there were uncanny. And to do it at that level for sooooo looong. Definately better than Champ and a lot of others. Simply an amazing player who would have been great in any era. Believe that. If he isn't a first ballot entry then the whole process is a joke.

[Reed#20]

Darrell Green was an absolute beast. I would venture to say that at least a third if not more of his interceptions were thrown to people that he was not covering. His reaction time and speed to get there were uncanny. And to do it at that level for sooooo looong. Definately better than Champ and a lot of others. Simply an amazing player who would have been great in any era. Believe that. If he isn't a first ballot entry then the whole process is a joke.

I agree, he should be first ballot hands down, but I dunno man they giving Art Monk the business :(

[HeavensFinest]

They have been giving Monk the business for forever. No way he shouldn't be in there. I am not a Redskins fan but let's be real the dude was phenomenal on a great team. he was the best they had and he was damn good. I look at a lot of things when I watch a receiver play football. The one thing I loved about Monk is that he had tremendous adjustment to the ball skills. Always made it look like the passess were well thrown or catchable. People who have never played the position don't realize how sometimes you have to change your route, adjust your running speed, place your hands and use your body to shield off the defender in a matter of a 2 seconds. He did it as well as anyone. Great route runner and to call him clutch is an understatement. Whew let me get down off this pedestal.

[BofaDeezNutts]

Darrell Green was an absolute beast. I would venture to say that at least a third if not more of his interceptions were thrown to people that he was not covering. His reaction time and speed to get there were uncanny. And to do it at that level for sooooo looong. Definately better than Champ and a lot of others. Simply an amazing player who would have been great in any era. Believe that. If he isn't a first ballot entry then the whole process is a joke.


Could not have said it better myself.

And for a smaller corner "green" was a very good tackler. Champ used to even say how much he admired green and especially his tackling abilities. I still remember watching Champ during his rookie year he was a horrible tackler but, Green worked with him in the off-season and the next year he improved that part of his game.

[BofaDeezNutts]

They have been giving Monk the business for forever. No way he shouldn't be in there. I am not a Redskins fan but let's be real the dude was phenomenal on a great team. he was the best they had and he was damn good. I look at a lot of things when I watch a receiver play football. The one thing I loved about Monk is that he had tremendous adjustment to the ball skills. Always made it look like the passess were well thrown or catchable. People who have never played the position don't realize how sometimes you have to change your route, adjust your running speed, place your hands and use your body to shield off the defender in a matter of a 2 seconds. He did it as well as anyone. Great route runner and to call him clutch is an understatement. Whew let me get down off this pedestal.


This also gets my stamp of approval :thumbsup:

My ink pad is beginning to run dry :)

[HeavensFinest]

Could not have said it better myself.

And for a smaller corner "green" was a very good tackler. Champ used to even say how much he admired green and especially his tackling abilities. I still remember watching Champ during his rookie year he was a horrible tackler but, Green worked with him in the off-season and the next year he improved that part of his game.


Green definitely took Champ under his wing. Tackling was a given with Green. Not that run blind and throw myself in his way crap either. Straight up head down, shouolder first and drive through tackling. On big backs, tight ends and anyone else who came his way. Boffa you watched him....is that a Gold DB or what? I will go on record as saying there has never been a team that Darrell Green in his prime would not start on. NEVER!

[BofaDeezNutts]

Green definitely took Champ under his wing. Tackling was a given with Green. Not that run blind and throw myself in his way crap either. Straight up head down, shouolder first and drive through tackling. On big backs, tight ends and anyone else who came his way. Boffa you watched him....is that a Gold DB or what? I will go on record as saying there has never been a team that Darrell Green in his prime would not start on. NEVER!


Yes....I agree totally and I watched him throughout his entire career growing up. On top of everything he did on the field he accomplished just as much off the field.

If Green had better hands than he did while playing he would have crushed the all-time interception record. But, great hands was not one of his abilities. Plus teams always threw away from him.

The ideal Hall of Fame Scenario would be Green and Monk getting inducted together when Green becomes elligible. I think there is a very good chance of this happening because, I believe the Hall of Fame commitee is finally realizing how good Art Monk really was.