Sim or Not Sim that is the Question

[nflhitman]

I am so tired of hearing how this game screws you. I played a guy last night that was in a 4 - 4 man package all night and he called me cheese because I send fade streaks over the top every play thinking he would come out of it and adjust his defense. LOL what was I thinking??? He stayed in that defense all game while I have Maynard and Reed going over the top and I score 70 points on him simply because of his ignorance to the game of Football. He messaged me after the game saying I was cheese because I use that play when he has no safety help over the top LMFAO! He asked me if I wanted to play a Real SIM game so he could show me LOL.

This would be a much better game and online experience if all of you would stop using the word SIM and start adjusting to what your opponent is doing. I will not play in your little box of skill. I take what the defense gives me and if you give me flats, checkdowns, out, ins, slants, post, streaks, fades, or anything else I will take it. I dont sub anyone in out of posisition or have all my stars on 1 side of the ball. I have over 200 losses and close to 300 wins so I can take a loss but it seems others will call cheese when they lose.

Take note the next time you see Champ Bailey get burned or Ray Lewis get blocked on a run play. stop acting like the people you put on your team is the unstoppable but your opponents team is unsim. Great players make great plays and great players also make stupid plays. Most of the time great players in this game make stupid plays is because of the plays that are called. I love how a guy plays zone all game and I burn his gold corners and he looks as to why his gold corners are not stopping my wr.s in his defensive matchup screen LOL. Defensive matchups only work if your playing Man Dumb*****.

In short everyone needs to stop using the word SIM. And stop crying and adjust your game.

[Tbonious Prime]

yea, people do call foul a lot on this game for some reason, or blame the A.I. for this and that, i recently lost to AccousticAnt and Boffa, i lost to both of them , and i think it was by a touchdown both times, even though the game with boffa was a bigger beat down than the score showed, but i didnt go blaming the A.I. or call cheese about it, there were some crazy plays on both sides of the ball in both games, and for that matter ever game,

i've won my last 12 games, and the last two were straight shootouts, i couldnt stop the guy, and he couldnt stop me, but i made a play late in the game to come away with the win

the game before those 2 was a defensive game, 0-0 at halftime and then the offenses got to kickin in the 2nd half after we figured each out out

all i'm saying is just play the game, and if you lose, just take it like a man, or woman if you are one, and just move on and next time you play that person, just play a better game, whether we win or not the only person to blame is ourselves

[madsqgrdn]

Yeah I played some guy yesterday and he did formation switches and motions on seriously every play to get my man to man out of position..(when people do formation changes the man to man defenders dont always adjust leaving them out of position)...

I didnt cry about it I just switched to more zones than normal no biggie..it was a very close game and he was a getleman throughout..I won in the end and he gave me a nuetral and sent me a message saying I should do more than pass to Coates....I have 2 recievers Coates and Rice and they always do about equal damage.

People are going to do things you dont like...adjustments thats the name of the game..he could have easily stopped me...when people only use 2 recievers I double trouble them..force them to go to the generics...but instead he probably got all upset and ruined the experience for himself..

[minergp]

i have no problem using my "non legend" players infact sometimes they will get the bulk of the receptions. im disapointed if i use less then 6 or 7 diferent recieving options, legend or not...you are holding yourself back if you rely only on your legends.

[madsqgrdn]

really ..because I have found that when youre behind the non legend guys do a great job...but when im ahead in the game they seem to drop every big play..I got Rice so that I could have his leadership effect the non legend guys...did you choose possesion, speed or balanced

[tpaterniti]

i have no problem using my "non legend" players infact sometimes they will get the bulk of the receptions. im disapointed if i use less then 6 or 7 diferent recieving options, legend or not...you are holding yourself back if you rely only on your legends.

Wow miner, long time no see. Are you on XBL? Because if so you are guaranteed a spot in my big draft league if you want it. It is not often these days to find gamers I go way back with. How is 2K8 treating you?

On the question of sim, there are always 3 categories of people.

1.) The people who will do anything to win, no matter how many glitches it exploits or how cheap it is.
2.) The people who think EVERYTHING they don't like or can't stop is cheese.
3.) Normal gamers who want a clean game without trying to tell you how you can and cannot play beyond reason.

Most people on XBL I would say are in group 3. I can probably count on 1 or 2 hands the number in group 2, and you just avoid them because you cannot reason with them. Bofa is the only exception. I can still have good games with him even though he is very strict on sim. The people in group 1 all have feedback below 80% so I never play them anyway and it is not an issue.

One thing I have really tried to do in the UFL league is to keep the gameplay rules as thin as possible for this very reason- so that it does not devolve into me telling people how they can and cannot play. I think it has been a huge success in that I have not had a single bad game out of the 13 or so I have played, and I think most people would agree (although hibachiii was ****ed that I accepted a PI call at the end, but that is another story altogether).

[minergp]

Wow miner, long time no see. Are you on XBL? Because if so you are guaranteed a spot in my big draft league if you want it. It is not often these days to find gamers I go way back with. How is 2K8 treating you?
its been a blast! i had to send my 360 out for repair, the video card went out but it was still under warrenty so it didnt cost me anything. im back online now so i could join if you have an opening.

[tpaterniti]

I am starting season 2 in about 2-3 weeks. I planned to do 16, but I might go to 18. I have about 22-23 people interested, but I don't know that I want to go that high. Are you pretty active on XBL and is your gamer tag minergp also?

[gtjr92]

sim and cheese 2 most over used words in this forum!! You can have your whine with both!! :)

[minergp]

I am starting season 2 in about 2-3 weeks. I planned to do 16, but I might go to 18. I have about 22-23 people interested, but I don't know that I want to go that high. Are you pretty active on XBL and is your gamer tag minergp also?
yes and yes

[FLAxWLESS]

Agreed.

Most people who scream with both use them as synonyms, but IMO they are completely different.

Sim - not adhering to traditional football practices
Cheese - abusing an exploit, that gives one player a significant advantage that cannot be neutralized AT ALL by the opposing player.

Someone who plays un-sim doesn't necessarily make them an unfair player. Someone who claims sim can be a cheeser.

The only things I consider cheese are:

1) Stacking the line on FG and blocking he FG/PAT b/c the kicking team cannot do anything to prevent this.
2) Cadence abuse.
3) QB sneaks/dives every 3rd and 1

The 5-2 overload is borderline, but it can be beat.

- Someone uses the same play over and over with success? Learn how to defend it.
- They go for it on 4th down? You gotta stop them. If you do... you have great field position. If you don't that's on you.
- The AI screwed you. Hey buddy, both of you are playing the same game. Goes both ways.

SIM does not mean good, does not mean bad.

I don't cry sim, but I am a fair player. I'll punt on most 4th downs, but sometimes I'll go for it. I play a WR at my RB position, when I'm not in a 4 or 5 WR set. You know what that means? In any 3 wide set, I probably won't run the damn ball.

Does that make me unsim? Sure.
Does it mean I don't play a fair game? No way.
Does it make me cheese? Nope.

My feedback speaks for itself... 275+ games, 90% feedback, green smiley face.

[BofaDeezNutts]

WR at RB is definitely cheese and it does give you an unfair advantage. It would take a complete moron to think there is nothing wrong with doing this type of substitution.

[BrandH]

WR at RB is definitely cheese and it does give you an unfair advantage. It would take a complete moron to think there is nothing wrong with doing this type of substitution.
In my season mode both my made up Jim THorpe and Ronnie Bull got hurt so my 3rd string WR is my running back. You can really tell how different he moves. He is much more agile and I can just weave through blockers on tosses. So I would agree that it is cheese.

Also it does suck building a team for a season then having 2 of you legend RBs hurt and out for 11 weeks with fractured forearms by week 4. Good thing I have Joe Perry.

This is off topic as well, but why don't they have some of the old school formations like wishbone or a real power I with 2 rbs and a fb in the backfield. Or even the single or double wing. Where these just formations in college ball? I thought I heard about the single wing being used in the Pros.

[FLAxWLESS]

WR at RB is definitely cheese and it does give you an unfair advantage. It would take a complete moron to think there is nothing wrong with doing this type of substitution.

What is the big advantage?

He can't shed tacklers.

[Valdarez]

What is the big advantage?

He can't shed tacklers.He doesn't have to, he can evade them more easily.

[Njake.]

FRANtesticles uses Ernest Givens at WR. He doesn't run, all he does is pass for the most part. So of course he is going to say nothing is wrong with it.

It is pretty easy to stop WRs at HB, at least for me.

And FRAN, why don't you just get Eric Bienemy or Dave Meggett?

[FLAxWLESS]

FRANtesticles uses Ernest Givens at WR. He doesn't run, all he does is pass for the most part. So of course he is going to say nothing is wrong with it.

It is pretty easy to stop WRs at HB, at least for me.

And FRAN, why don't you just get Eric Bienemy or Dave Meggett?

I don't use Bienemy or Meggett b/c I pass more often than run (usually run no more than 9 times a game, unless I'm running out the clock).

You played me, most of the time Givins was out wide. Only in 3 or 2 WR sets was Givins at HB. At that point you know he'll be going out to the flat and you can eliminate running as a threat.

[FLAxWLESS]

If a WR is more elusive then why do people still use OJ, Emmitt, Sayers, Sanders, etc??

[madsqgrdn]

WR at RB is definitely cheese and it does give you an unfair advantage. It would take a complete moron to think there is nothing wrong with doing this type of substitution.

I second that..with the uncharacteristic ease of passing to the flat in this game coupled with the fact that even if you try to manually stick to the reciever out of the backfield there is a slight delay in how fast you can pursue...WR at HB is total cheese...and Im not one to call cheese often...

[madsqgrdn]

If a WR is more elusive then why do people still use OJ, Emmitt, Sayers, Sanders, etc??

because putting jerry rice or ditka at running back would be boring and silly and cheesy...damn you made me say it again...

[FLAxWLESS]

because putting jerry rice or ditka at running back would be boring and silly and cheesy...damn you made me say it again...

Really put J-Rice or Ditka at RB is better than having a GOLD RB? No way.

Match a WR at any level to a RB at any level and there is a big difference in running effectiveness. There is no way that Jerry Rice or Ditka are better RBs than Campbell, OJ, Sayers, etc...

Is Ernest Givins a better RB than Okoye or Means? Hell no.

When subbing a WR at RB, you basically concede any effort for any type of running game, to play better in pass. RBs are better than WRs at running the ball! What a thought. If you stick Rice at RB then you are not utilizing him the best way possible.

In my case, why would I play Meggett who is an inferior pass catcher when I use passing plays 95% of the time? Just getting the most of my roster to tailor my play style.

Is it unsim, yes.
Cheese, no. There is no INDEFENSIBLE advantage to it. It can be stopped. It has been stopped.

[BofaDeezNutts]

Cheese.....yes!!!

It doesn't matter if it can be stopped!!!

[Njake.]

It is pretty cheesy. Stop trying to defend it FRAN, you are not convincing anyone.

[FLAxWLESS]

Then we just have different definitions of cheese.

[Njake.]

I don't think it is difficult to stop a WR at HB, but why would you do it? Obviously, people think it is cheese. And you could just get Eric Bienemy or Dave Meggett who both have soft hands and are decent runners.

[Gunner969]

Fran, where it gets cheezy is if you call a 4WR/1RB formation with the RB a WR legend, which according to you, is guaranteed to be a pass play. So, the defense always comes out expecting a pass in that formation, which according to you is what the defense should do. Where it gets cheezy is if you switch the RB from the WR to a non-legend RB (in the play-calling screen) and still use the same 4WR/1RB formation. The defense comes out expecting a pass play, but you run with the non-legend RB who will do a pretty good job against the pass defense.

That's an unfair advantage and the source of cheeze.

[FLAxWLESS]

Fran, where it gets cheezy is if you call a 4WR/1RB formation with the RB a WR legend, which according to you, is guaranteed to be a pass play. So, the defense always comes out expecting a pass in that formation, which according to you is what the defense should do. Where it gets cheezy is if you switch the RB from the WR to a non-legend RB (in the play-calling screen) and still use the same 4WR/1RB formation. The defense comes out expecting a pass play, but you run with the non-legend RB who will do a pretty good job against the pass defense.

That's an unfair advantage and the source of cheeze.

And running with a non-legend RB is cheese, why? The defense doesn't notice the switch (not that i ever did it, I just ran with Givins) and since non-legend RBs are such beasts.

Njake... so you agree with me.

I'm not saying it's sim.
But it's not cheese like you said it's easy to stop, not a big advantage.

Why do I do it? I pass 95-98% of the time. Most games I don't even run. However I don't want to be in 4 wide sets all game, although most of my time is spent in it. So why draft an RB when they're not going to be put to use.

IT IS UNSIM!!! I agree, but not cheese.

Are WRs better runners than RBs? No.
Can flats or a WR at RB be stopped with pass defense... yes.

So where's the cheese advantage?

[BofaDeezNutts]

It's either "CHEESE" or "SIM".

Definitely CHEESE. :thumbsdow

[Gunner969]

defense... yes.

So where's the cheese advantage?

U don't think telling the defense the formation is 4WR/1RB but in reality sometimes it's 5WRs and sometimes it's 4WR/1RB an unfair/cheezy advantage? What do you categorize that as?

[tpaterniti]

Because a Bronze WR at HB = a Gold HB in terms of agility, speed and elusiveness. That gives you and unfair advantage and is why it is cheese.

[Njake.]

Gunner, if you are saying it is cheese to run the ball with a 4 WR/ 1 HB set, then you are out of your mind.

Tpat. I wouldn't go as far as to say a bronze WR has as much elusiveness as a Gold RB. I agree there is more elusiveness than a bronze RB, but not a gold.

[FLAxWLESS]

Gunner, if you are saying it is cheese to run the ball with a 4 WR/ 1 HB set, then you are out of your mind.

Tpat. I wouldn't go as far as to say a bronze WR has as much elusiveness as a Gold RB. I agree there is more elusiveness than a bronze RB, but not a gold.


Tpat is going going overboard, but is Givins really more agile than Meggett? I'd give Meggett the edge in agility/elusiveness at best they are even, however he can break more tackles than Givins.

But as far as running game goes... Means and Okoye would give you a better run game than any bronze WR at RB despite their supposed "elusiveness." Does that extra "elusiveness" really translate to a steady ground game? Nope, they lack stamina and break tackle ability. Try running the ball consistently with a WR and tell me if you really gain an advantage.

Putting a WR at RB has a plus "better pass catching" and a minus "ineffective run game"... not making it cheese.

But I'll agree to disagree with Tpat.

It seems everything not sim is cheese, he has a more absolute definition.
A SIM player can be cheese, in my interpretation and definition of cheese. Not all SIM players play "fair" or don't use cheese.

[Njake.]

Then why are you stupid enough to use a WR at HB?

[minergp]

You know there are very good pass catching, route running backs out there. Im not to sure about 2k8 yet because i havnt had it long but for example when i play with the phins on 2k5 i sub in Minor for swing passes and cirle passes..he is very good at catching passes out of the backfield and also has very good running skills and is fast but he's not big enough as an every down back. I have okoye as my back on my Miami Marlins team on 2k8 because he has good hand...im pretty sure thats why i put him back there but i'll have to check tonight.

[Gunner969]

Gunner, if you are saying it is cheese to run the ball with a 4 WR/ 1 HB set, then you are out of your mind.


I'm not saying that.

I'm saying that the defense has no idea a WR is playing at HB.

[minergp]

I also think that if you can find a good WR type HB it would benifit you more because then you could use your WR where they should be used. It sounds like you like the "noticable advantage" of having a WR that you can throw to in the flat or you wouldnt have a WR in the backfield.

[Dallas4lr]

Well,

From my perspective the problem with the 4WR/HB with 5 WR's is that this takes advantage of the major flaw in this game THE PASS DEFENSE!!!!

Pass defense just sucks in this game. the only good FS's in the game are Gold, you only have silver and bronxe SS's(sub par), this wouldnt be so bad except the LB's even suck in pass coverage, besides their is no legend attribute to counter route god on defense.

4W sets are all almost impossible to consistently shut down as it is. Mainly because the only consitent decent coverage corners are Lem Barney and Lester Hayes. And Lester Hayes is really only effective against WR's his size, any of the big catching TE's or WR will even eat L. Hayes for toast.

Now instead of running 4WR set your running a 4WR set that that looks more like a running play, this is clearly taking advantage of a game flaw. Most times you cant even cover a 4WR set all legends, now you want to go 4WR conceled set with 4 or 5 WR's, Sheeeshhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

One of two things happens. your WR coming out the backfield will dust the LB picking him up at the line. our if your playing zone this is even worse, in most cases the defenders especially the safties react far to slow to make a play on this runaway train.

I agree if you want to maximize your passing game use any of the catching RB's ????? Using a WR at RB is clearly taking advantage of an obvious game flaw

[BofaDeezNutts]

It seems everything not sim is cheese, he has a more absolute definition.
A SIM player can be cheese, in my interpretation and definition of cheese. Not all SIM players play "fair" or don't use cheese.


I disagree.....not everyone cheeses!

Also, any out of position substitution is cheese in my book. Because, the game does not allow your opponent, that is trying to play defense, to know these substitutions have been made.

Which has ruined online gaming for me.

[Njake.]

In my opinion, there is no "un-sim"

It is either cheese, or sim.