Offensive Line and Defensive Line Legends needs work

[digitalandroid]

I created a team consisting of Legends only in DL and OL.

And i found out that the Legends for DL and OL does not really create an impact even if you stack the whole D Line with 4 Legends.

Here are the problems i saw

1. Defensive line rush is too slow. Even against generic OL. Guys like Reggie White Have a hard time getting through.

2. Generic DT are able to get through against Legend Centers. Kinda shocking, i had 5 Legends in the OLine. And i would expect this line to give me more time. But its not so. My line allowed a sack even against Generic.

I think this is one of the areas that need fixing for 2k9.

1. Make the defensive line legends faster and make the Oline more smarter.

[GoodSense]

I created a team consisting of Legends only in DL and OL.

And i found out that the Legends for DL and OL does not really create an impact even if you stack the whole D Line with 4 Legends.

Here are the problems i saw

1. Defensive line rush is too slow. Even against generic OL. Guys like Reggie White Have a hard time getting through.

2. Generic DT are able to get through against Legend Centers. Kinda shocking, i had 5 Legends in the OLine. And i would expect this line to give me more time. But its not so. My line allowed a sack even against Generic.

I think this is one of the areas that need fixing for 2k9.

1. Make the defensive line legends faster and make the Oline more smarter.


I caught this early on when playing against the cpu teams.

The only question I would have is what type of players where chosen?
Pass blockers, run blockers, etc...
That would make a difference.

But I will say I've seen some fast star DL players playing as they should, but again I think people expect Star players to mean instant success or guaranteed success.

Generics can sack too through an all star offensive line if you give them time.
How much time are you averaging with your line before the sack?

[wEEman33]

Center is easily the worst position to have a legend at on the offensive line, because for some reason, the center gets really spastic and often can't decide who to block or where to go when he has good stats.

Also, there are only two plays in the game where the center pulls: the double counter and the screen pass. Guards are a lot more useful, in that regard, as there are tons of running plays that have them pulling out and utilizing their superior blocking skills/

And you're right about generics being too good at blocking legend defensive linemen; this has been a known issue since the first week of the game, and it can be made somewhat better by tweaking the blocking sliders.

[Reed#20]

I think the default pursuit slider needs to change too. The angles are mehhh. Case in point. IN the game I just played. I threw a ball to the flats. My buds defenders dropped to their zones. Now the defenders are 8 yards up the field. Why is their first move inside then go back outside. All it does is give me room on the outside to pick up some extra yards. He switches over to make the play but I still got some extra yards that I probably should not have gotten.

[Gunner969]

I'm glad the Oline/Dline legends are as bad as they are. If they were better, they would totally dominate the game and force everyone to simply stack up on them which would make for a boring game.

For example, if the DLine legends were much faster, and I had 3 of them on my team, then you better have 3 Oline legends to block them or else it would be a sack fest.

If you did have 3 Oline legends to cancel my 3 Dline legends, then why bother with any legends?

[SouthShallRise]

in my opinion, legends in both positions are definitely worth it

[BrandH]

I think that they should make it that you have to but a O-lineman or two unless they other guy has a all generic O-Line. I agree this needs to be made important.

[nyknicks33]

To me, the most effective Olineman, are the guards and centers. They are absolutely devestating on traps, counters,screens. On defense, I find that best pairing is DT/DE..it seems that once you get to 3 or more, they just tend to cancel each other out.

That's been my observation anyway.

[Johnny_Mangera]

To me, the most effective Olineman, are the guards and centers. They are absolutely devestating on traps, counters,screens. On defense, I find that best pairing is DT/DE..it seems that once you get to 3 or more, they just tend to cancel each other out.

That's been my observation anyway.

Exactly!, We have all tried many different forms of combinations. I once had 4 defensive lineman legends and they played WORST then generic :confused:


So I went to Three they played the same, but when I went to Two then miracolously I started seeing "some" results.

Now though I don't even bother, put 1 legned on the lone it's like wasting a pick cause he'll get doubled, place two and there somewhat semi effective.

Honestly the most important position on the field (defensively) are Lbs and Safeties.


Generic cbs play average, line man as well.

But generic lbs and safeties will get MURDERED.


Case in point I always used legend safeties (silver), I used that one pick and made an extra linebacker and I was getting bombed on all day with that generic safety
(strong side).


So in my observation if you MUST at least have 1 legend safety and place him at Strong, the weak side can be a generic as the field is alot smalller on that side to cover, but still on a long fly route, Watch Out!


Also Safeties are very important becasue for whatever reason lbs,dbs, can get blocked on certain running plays, who do you think is going to save that game winning score....... Safeties.

So honestly I build my defense like this:

Safeties, Lbs, and then Cbs ( if you like to play Zone)

Cbs,Safeties,lbs ( if you play man)


, peace

[nyknicks33]

Exactly!, We have all tried many different forms of combinations. I once had 4 defensive lineman legends and they played WORST then generic :confused:


So I went to Three they played the same, but when I went to Two then miracolously I started seeing "some" results.

Now though I don't even bother, put 1 legned on the lone it's like wasting a pick cause he'll get doubled, place two and there somewhat semi effective.

Honestly the most important position on the field (defensively) are Lbs and Safeties.


Generic cbs play average, line man as well.

But generic lbs and safeties will get MURDERED.


Case in point I always used legend safeties (silver), I used that one pick and made an extra linebacker and I was getting bombed on all day with that generic safety
(strong side).


So in my observation if you MUST at least have 1 legend safety and place him at Strong, the weak side can be a generic as the field is alot smalller on that side to cover, but still on a long fly route, Watch Out!


Also Safeties are very important becasue for whatever reason lbs,dbs, can get blocked on certain running plays, who do you think is going to save that game winning score....... Safeties.

So honestly I build my defense like this:

Safeties, Lbs, and then Cbs ( if you like to play Zone)

Cbs,Safeties,lbs ( if you play man)


, peace


^^^yup..a run coverage safety is vital, unless you like to user control that position. If you check the tackeling stats after a game, I'm willing to bet that 9 times out of ten, 1 of your safeties will be either 1 or 2 in tackles.

[wEEman33]

I'm glad the Oline/Dline legends are as bad as they are. If they were better, they would totally dominate the game and force everyone to simply stack up on them which would make for a boring game.

For example, if the DLine legends were much faster, and I had 3 of them on my team, then you better have 3 Oline legends to block them or else it would be a sack fest.

If you did have 3 Oline legends to cancel my 3 Dline legends, then why bother with any legends?

So you're saying you want an arcade football game, then. Fine, go play Madden.

If All Pro wants to be an accurate football simulation, then they need to fix this problem.

You look at most teams in the NFL, they will have at least one or two really good linemen on each side of the ball (meaning the offense/defense). While the best teams like the Pats and Colts might even have upwards of 4 or 5 "legend" linemen total (if we count offense and defense).

Compare this to the amount of "legend" players that most teams have at the skill positions and you see why All Pro is so messed up. How many teams have four or five "legend" passing threats? None, barring a few scant exceptions like the Pats and Colts. Most teams have, at most, three "legend" quality receiving options.

That is how is should be in All Pro. And if the number of linemen in the player pool is any indication, that is how the developers THOUGHT it was going to be in All Pro, unfortunately, they didn't test the game enough to realize that that's not the case.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Sorry, double post.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

But the D-linemen are definitely perfect in the game, not too powerful, but not too ineffective. I hate when people complain to me that they can't get any sacks even though they have Dexter manley or Clyde Simmons. But you can really feel the effectiveness of gold linemen, I mean its so hard to run to their side, and you have to throw short all game long.

The way I counter the gold D-linemen is to run straight at them, because I have O-line legends of my own. I find that when you run away from the legend D-linemen, they always get the tackle from the side.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

But O-Line legends really aren't as effective as they should be. I have tried Jim Otto, Jim Parker, Larry Little, and Anthony Munoz, and it really doesn't feel like they make more of a difference compared to the bronzes and silvers.
I mean they are useful, but they sometimes blow their assignments too often.

Next year they should make it so that O-Linemen are actually worth their weight in gold, just like they are in real life. Also, they have to make it so that the generics can actually play, so that It would be a hard decision to pick between a gold HB or a gold O-Lineman.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Right now, I understand why no one picks O-linemen.

Its because the generics at skill positions just plain old suck. If 2k made it so that the generic WRs and HBs could actually catch, have decent speed, or break just a couple of tackes a game, then more people would pick legend O-linemen.

A legend WR or HB is much more better in this game than a generic, but a legend O-lineman is not too much better than a generic one.

[grazzt69]

I think part of the problem with the legend OL are that most are severly undersized. Majority of Legend OL are from times when 250 lb guys were considered "big". When you put a generic 300-340 lb DL up against a 250-275 lb legend OL, they would in general have a tough time pushing them around or holding their ground. The only time I really see legend OL doing anything beneficial is if you manage to get them out beyond the line of scrimmage.

[Reed#20]

They may not be as effective for the human controlled team but if you play the A.I any the Oline are monsters. Plus one thing they really need to correct and that is the Olinemen have sick straight line speed. The Olinemen - even the generics, outrun linebackers and defensive backs. Get outta here with that VC.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

In real life, the teams with the better O-lines tend to be better teams.

The Pats, Colts, Chargers, Jaguars, Cowboys, Packers all have really good O-lines, and are all really good teams. (Even though the Cowboys just lost, they still are a good team)

IMO, the Vikings O-line and D-line pretty much are the only reason they were so much better this season. Don't get me wrong, AD is amazing, but that O-line really improved their chemistry from last year, AD has to credit the O-line for most of his success.


Look at the Raiders and Lions. They Raiders have a really bad pass blocking O-line, and the Lions can't block for anything (trust me, I've been to a couple of Lions games)

[nyknicks33]

Right now, I understand why no one picks O-linemen.

Its because the generics at skill positions just plain old suck. If 2k made it so that the generic WRs and HBs could actually catch, have decent speed, or break just a couple of tackes a game, then more people would pick legend O-linemen.

A legend WR or HB is much more better in this game than a generic, but a legend O-lineman is not too much better than a generic one.


The Olineman work much better in tandem..its like Dlineman in reverse. The best D line combo IMO is DT/DE..anything more then 2 OL's or 2 DL's is just unnecessary duplication.

Same with the O-line...Tackle-Center, or Tackle-Opposite Side Guard does wonders.

I have Munoz at OT, with Jim Langer at Center, with Orenthal on one of my teams. Len Dawson is my QB, Charlie Taylor and Earnest Givens are my recievers.

I get devestating blocking on counters, traps, and dive plays...pass protection on roll outs and play action roll outs actually work when you combine the blocking with dawson's playfake and deception attribute.


I do agree with this though: If I have reggie white and too tall jones as my bookends, and you are trotting out a generic O line, you should absolutely be made to pay a price. Try covering the legend recievers 1 on 1 with generics for a whole game and see what that gets you

[Reed#20]

I think part of the problem with the legend OL are that most are severly undersized. Majority of Legend OL are from times when 250 lb guys were considered "big". When you put a generic 300-340 lb DL up against a 250-275 lb legend OL, they would in general have a tough time pushing them around or holding their ground. The only time I really see legend OL doing anything beneficial is if you manage to get them out beyond the line of scrimmage.


Your argument relies on physics, but the game does not rely too much on physics, if it did Rice would not be able to run over Ronnie Lott grrrrrrrrrrrr :(

[wEEman33]

I agree that two linemen per offense/defense is the way to go in this game. Anything more than that is just overkill and a waste of picks because of the way the game plays.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

But the thing about this game is that if you do use 2 legend O-linemen in this game, then usually one of my skill positions (WR, HB, S) will be left out. And you have to agree with me that a legend WR or HB is worth more than a legend O-lineman.


Pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaase, 2k, make it so that the generics can actually play football, because its like a nessecity to pick legend WRs or HBs in this game.

[wEEman33]

Legend cornerbacks are not as necessary as you might think in this game as long as they are boosted by leadership. Legend safeties are much more valuable IMO, because it's easy to cover the short routes manually, but much more difficult to cover the deep lob. Also, non-legend safties will cost you TDs much more often on blown coverage than a CB might.

I have several teams with no legend corners (my all Houston Oilers team, for instance) and they do fine. That Oilers team also has no legend TE because of Mike Munchak at tackle and Bruce Matthews (gold CAP) at guard. The only receivers are bronze players (Givins and Thigpen), but I don't have too much trouble passing because I'll throw to whoever's open, and my generics are boosted by Neil O'Donnell's leadership.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Well maybe corners aren't that necessary, but you have to admit that a team with gold WRs or HBs will always be better than teams with Gold O-linemen in this game.

The opposite is kinda true in real life though, as look what happened to Edgerrin James in Arizona.

[wEEman33]

You are right in that regard, and 2K really should rethink their strategy if they want to make this a true simulation of football, but sadly, most of the people playing these games are like Gunner, who think it's "boring" to have to "waste" picks on linemen.

Teams like the Cardinals, Rams, and Lions of this year are a good example of why talent at the skill positions doesn't do crap in real football without a decent line to go with it.

Or on the flip-side of that, look at a team like the Broncos, who are loaded in the secondary, but terrible up front, and got stomped on defense all year long.

[nyknicks33]

Legend cornerbacks are not as necessary as you might think in this game as long as they are boosted by leadership. Legend safeties are much more valuable IMO, because it's easy to cover the short routes manually, but much more difficult to cover the deep lob. Also, non-legend safties will cost you TDs much more often on blown coverage than a CB might.

I have several teams with no legend corners (my all Houston Oilers team, for instance) and they do fine. That Oilers team also has no legend TE because of Mike Munchak at tackle and Bruce Matthews (gold CAP) at guard. The only receivers are bronze players (Givins and Thigpen), but I don't have too much trouble passing because I'll throw to whoever's open, and my generics are boosted by Neil O'Donnell's leadership.

You are the 2nd person I have heard who say this. I will have to try, this and make sure that I have a Leadership Bonus Defender on the field. I user control a safety, so having a generic at 1 of those spots doesnt concern me that much. If I can pull off playing well with not as many legends in the secondary..man does that open up putting resources in other areas.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

^^^ Exactly, its like your taking the words right out of my mouth.

Even in Madden, teams with good o-lines are much easier to play with.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Hey wEEman33, what abilities did you give Bruce Matthews?

[wEEman33]

As bad as the generics are in this game, leadership really is essential attribute to have on both sides of the ball. I don't think I have a single team without leadership on both offense and defense. The difference in play is just too huge to not do it.

Unfortunately, that really limits the type of players you can use, so I'll often just use CAPs to fill in the gaps whererever I need the leadership bonus.

[wEEman33]

Bruce Matthews has:

run block, pass block, strength, stamina, and whatever the ability is that makes the QB less likely to get rattled by pressure (I think it's "stonewall"?).

Needless to say, he's a beast. Coupled with Munchak at tackle, and Eddie George as the RB (gold CAP with workhorse, stamina, power, quick feet, break-away burst), I average about 250 yards a game on the ground.

Screen passes to their side of the field are also quite lethal.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

IMO, some players have more leadership than others.
Whenever I use Chuck Noll, it feels like my whole defense swarms to the ball. IMO, his leadership rating has to be a like a 99.

However, when I have Greg Lloyd, his leadership doesn't feel like its as effective. Don't get me wrong, Greg Lloyd's leadership feels high, but just not as high as Chuck Noll's

[wEEman33]

I think you right there, too.

Gold leadership definitely seems to be more effective than bronze (same with silver). I'm not sure about individual players in the same tier having higher/lower leadership, but it wouldn't surprise me given how obvious it is that there's tons of stats/ratings at work in the game which 2K decided to hide from us.

[wEEman33]

Perhaps a hint would be the fact that players who only have a few abilities are often really good at their specialties while players with a lot of abilities are more "all-around" players, who can do a lot of things well, but none of those things amazingly.

[nyknicks33]

Perhaps a hint would be the fact that players who only have a few abilities are often really good at their specialties while players with a lot of abilities are more "all-around" players, who can do a lot of things well, but none of those things amazingly.


Nice observation about O'Donell, I have him on my team and my generic power running back runs like he is natrone means at times. I played a guy who ONLY had Joe Montana on offense and his guys were making plays all over the place, he knew what he was doing. Im definitely going to experiment with this. Having multiple leadership bonus guys, though, im convinced is utterly useless..lol..it defeats the purpose.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Yeah, most gold leadership seems to be more effective than lower tiers.
But Chuck Noll seems to me to be an exception to the rule, because he is bronze and his leadership seems to be as effective as gold leadership.

IMO, Walter Payton's leadership really helps the O-line. And, I always pick the QBs with leadership, because IMO, QBs should be leaders of teams.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Yeah, sometimes having too many guys with leadership is bad too, just like too many legends on O-line or D-line.

[wEEman33]

I'm pretty sure the leadership bonus can only work once per side of the ball, so there's no reason to have more than one guy with it on offense/defense.

As for Noll, I believe leadership is his only ability, so that is probably why his leadership would more effective than someone like Lloyd, who has several other abilities in addition to leadership.

That's just my personal theory, based on my experience with the game.

We'll never have a conclusive answer unless someone from 2K decides to tell us.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Yeah, I really want to know the ratings to prove that abilities don't mean crap. Mel Renfro is a great example. He is soooooo much better and more consistent than Lem Barney.

[wEEman33]

Add me to the list of Renfro believers.

He is a better return man than Barney, too, from what I've played.

Eugene Robinson vs. Fred Marion is another good example; Robinson has two abilities (coverage and ball hawk), but seems to play the pass a lot worse than Marion, who only has one ability (I think it's just ball hawk).

[wEEman33]

Here's another good one:

Tony Canadeo

Dude's a silver RB with one ability (return specialist), yet he is the fastest RB at the silver tier and an absolute beast on kick returns,.

He's got good special moves too, he just doesn't shed tackles or get a whole lot positive yards after getting hit.

Before the patch, he was hands-down the best silver back, now that the tackle-breaking has been toned down though, he's been relegated to strictly a "big-play" type RB who can take it the distance if his blocks hold up or he gets one on one on the outside.

[Reed#20]

You are right in that regard, and 2K really should rethink their strategy if they want to make this a true simulation of football, but sadly, most of the people playing these games are like Gunner, who think it's "boring" to have to "waste" picks on linemen.

Teams like the Cardinals, Rams, and Lions of this year are a good example of why talent at the skill positions doesn't do crap in real football without a decent line to go with it.

Or on the flip-side of that, look at a team like the Broncos, who are loaded in the secondary, but terrible up front, and got stomped on defense all year long.


I think that's the problem. We want a "true simulation" but I'm not sure 2k wants to go down that route. Not to bring up the INT thing, but for those excusing it, their comments just do not square with what Jeff Thomas (you know the one that told us to shut up and play - I would say something else but mehhh) bragged about on gamespot about the defensive backs. His entire point was that they had worked soo much with coverage that you better be careful where you put the ball or it will be picked off. Yet when we get the game people have to be anything but careful :(

[Reed#20]

^^^ Exactly, its like your taking the words right out of my mouth.

Even in Madden, teams with good o-lines are much easier to play with.

LOL nahhh. All of the Olines in Madden are carbon copies. Just nano blitz them the hell and none of them can block.

[wEEman33]

I think what Thomas meant to say was, "Be careful where you put the ball, or you will get pass defended. That is, unless you're running an out, or a fade, or a corner; we haven't figured out how to program our defenders to play those routes yet, so you can just blindly throw it on those routes and the WR will be open 9 times out of 10. "

[Reed#20]

I think what Thomas meant to say was, "Be careful where you put the ball, or you will get pass defended. That is, unless you're running an out, or a fade, or a corner; we haven't figured out how to program our defenders to play those routes yet, so you can just blindly throw it on those routes and the WR will be open 9 times out of 10. "


LOL, of course and I will qualify this. Since he PROBABLY doesn't even play the game he was probably being literal in his statements :( Yikes

[Gunner969]

You are right in that regard, and 2K really should rethink their strategy if they want to make this a true simulation of football, but sadly, most of the people playing these games are like Gunner, who think it's "boring" to have to "waste" picks on linemen.

Teams like the Cardinals, Rams, and Lions of this year are a good example of why talent at the skill positions doesn't do crap in real football without a decent line to go with it.

Or on the flip-side of that, look at a team like the Broncos, who are loaded in the secondary, but terrible up front, and got stomped on defense all year long.

Hey fool, did you even read my post? Did you understand it? Apparently not, so let me try to dumb it down for you:

I said that "the linemen dominate the game of football". Therefore, if one team is heavy on the line legend and the other team is not, the team with the legends will destroy the other team (just like real football). Therefore, all players will eventually migrate to having legends on both lines on their team because otherwise they are guaranteed to lose.

So, now comes the difficult part for the single brain celled organisms, if *everyone* picks legend linemen because they have to, what is the point of having them in the first place? Where is the variety? If there is no variety, the game gets boring.

Note that I never said to keep all linemen dumb, I said to not make the legends dominate the generics, which was the point of the thread (read the thread subject).

[Reed#20]

Hey fool, did you even read my post? Did you understand it? Apparently not, so let me try to dumb it down for you:

I said that "the linemen dominate the game of football". Therefore, if one team is heavy on the line legend and the other team is not, the team with the legends will destroy the other team (just like real football). Therefore, all players will eventually migrate to having legends on both lines on their team because otherwise they are guaranteed to lose.

So, now comes the difficult part for the single brain celled organisms, if *everyone* picks legend linemen because they have to, what is the point of having them in the first place? Where is the variety? If there is no variety, the game gets boring.

Note that I never said to keep all linemen dumb, I said to not make the legends dominate the generics, which was the point of the thread (read the thread subject).


Well his point isn't as dumb as you suggest either. What's the point of having Legend Olinemen in the damn game at all if the generics will do just as good? They are useless and basically a waste of space? I will not go as far as to say that people should be forced to take Legend Olinemen, BUT I will say that they should be limited in what they can do or get eaten alive. For instance, no Legend Olinemen, then no problem, you should be forced to use an Extra TE (the generic) to help double team and chip block. Your back should always have to chip block as well. So this would mean for this person, line up in 4WR and 5WR and you got a problem. But line up in Ace, Shotgun Ace, Doubles, Triple ECt and you MIGHT be alright unless you get an all out blitz.

But if people are not willing to use that as a strategy their QB should be looking up at the sky often against a all star front. They really have to do away with the "kid" nature of the game.

[Gunner969]

Reed, I never said his point was dumb, I said he was dumb.

Sure the game could use more balancing and AI for the linemen, no question.

[5Daimyo]

IMO, the lines need their own selection screen. Perhaps you get to pick 1 gold, 1 silver, and 2 bronze or something like that.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

Or, you get to pick your whole team. There would still be strategy, because you are deciding where you want to spend your golds, silvers.

[wEEman33]

How does "having" (note the quotation marks) to pick linemen hurt roster variety?

If anything, it will help variety, because of all the different linemen in the game (it is probably the deepest player pool next to the WR's), and all of the different ways to build a successful line.

It sounds to me like you are just another brain-washed Madden-ite who thinks that video-game football should be all about the skill positions, even though he knows that's not the case in real life.

[JHova1982]

How does "having" (note the quotation marks) to pick linemen hurt roster variety?

If anything, it will help variety, because of all the different linemen in the game (it is probably the deepest player pool next to the WR's), and all of the different ways to build a successful line.

It sounds to me like you are just another brain-washed Madden-ite who thinks that video-game football should be all about the skill positions, even though he knows that's not the case in real life.

totally agree with you man. with a offensive line your playbook is not limited to anything and thats where it counts, video game and real life. with a generic line and there on pass block u can only run simple running plays and be successful and passing wise you only getting 3-5 seconds to pass the ball. i play on run block cause my teams need to be successful running the ball but passing wise i cant run any roll out play action, my line is only giving 3 seconds(be lucky if i can more than that) and my 90 drop steps is limited.

if u got a 2 or 3 people on your line, your playcalling is limitless. i wouldnt call it a waste to use a legends on the line but its a waste if u trying to build a team thats balanced. u have to be one dimensional and thats either passing or running and your d will be suspects.

[JHova1982]

^^ but really thats like in real life. look at the NFL teams like the colts, bengals, lions, rams, and browns. all them teams have high powered offense, with pro bowlers as lineman and top notch recievers and so forth but there defense is sorry. well the colts this year has showed some defense but overall they was not a good defensive teams for years.

but like the NFL, APF 2k8 is a copycat game. people are copying team formats cause they saw how bad they lost to them and so they make sure they create a team like that and do it to others.

i personnally say create your team how u want to play football and let your opponent beat your style of football and not somethin thats duplicated

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

^^^ What do you mean? The Lions and Rams O-lines played like crap this year.

[JHova1982]

^^^ What do you mean? The Lions and Rams O-lines played like crap this year.

no there linemans was actually hurt this year. especially the rams both there star lineman was hurt. lions o-line is cole i didnt see kitna get sack that many times it was there defense that beat them. all the games they played, whether win or losses they was still putting up like 24 to 30 points. Well the rams had too many injures to fight through this season, i think the only person that didnt get hurt thats significant was Holt

[Gunner969]

How does "having" (note the quotation marks) to pick linemen hurt roster variety?

If anything, it will help variety, because of all the different linemen in the game (it is probably the deepest player pool next to the WR's), and all of the different ways to build a successful line.

If you have 11 legends to choose from and you know that if you don't pick at least 2 Oline and at least 2 Dline you will lose the game, that means you really only have 7 legends to pick for the rest of your team. 7 has less variety than 11.

I agree with the guy with the extremely long name and 5Daimyo that the linemen should have a their own legend pool. Then they can add value without taking away from the rest of the game.

It sounds to me like you are just another brain-washed Madden-ite who thinks that video-game football should be all about the skill positions, even though he knows that's not the case in real life.

Whatever... I'm a Madden fan, yet I'm wasting my time on here arguing over how NFL 2K8 can be improved. If you say so.

I use the QB to pass, WR to catch and RB to run. I also control the LBs and DBs on defense. Of course I care more about which legend I put in the positions I control. Whenever I tackle someone with Greg Lloyd or Jack Lambert, I'm hoping I kill them just like they did in real life.

LOOKs to me you're just a "pick a play, let the AI do everything for you" type of a player. Didn't Madden have some dumb feature called the "lead blocker" or something like that where you can control the Oline to pancake someone... sounds perfect for you.

[nyknicks33]

All I would like to see is the same penalty be applied to using an all generic O-line to block 2 hall of fame pass rushers, as there would be trying to defend a 3 legend reciever of choice offense with a all generic defensive backfield, or trying to stop Earl Campbell with a all generic front 7.

We all know dang well what would happen, if you tried to pull that off. You may survive for a while with good playcalling and skills..but eventually its going to result in a pounding.

If I'm bringing Reggie White and Too Tall Jones off the edges on generic tackles with no help, there should be just as severe a price to be paid and there simply isnt.

[LSUTIGERSPHXSUNS]

no there linemans was actually hurt this year. especially the rams both there star lineman was hurt. lions o-line is cole i didnt see kitna get sack that many times it was there defense that beat them. all the games they played, whether win or losses they was still putting up like 24 to 30 points. Well the rams had too many injures to fight through this season, i think the only person that didnt get hurt thats significant was Holt

The Lions allowed soooo many sacks this year. They allowed 54 sacks this year, which was highest if not one of the highest in the league.

[digitalandroid]

I caught this early on when playing against the cpu teams.

The only question I would have is what type of players where chosen?
Pass blockers, run blockers, etc...
That would make a difference.

But I will say I've seen some fast star DL players playing as they should, but again I think people expect Star players to mean instant success or guaranteed success.

Generics can sack too through an all star offensive line if you give them time.
How much time are you averaging with your line before the sack?

I have more time with 0 legends on my OL, with a Bronze QB. Compared to a 5 Legend OL with Generic QB.

Now i would think a 5 Legend OL would be a WALL allowing more QB time for a generic, but i get sacked more often compared to the first setting.

[digitalandroid]

I'm glad the Oline/Dline legends are as bad as they are. If they were better, they would totally dominate the game and force everyone to simply stack up on them which would make for a boring game.

For example, if the DLine legends were much faster, and I had 3 of them on my team, then you better have 3 Oline legends to block them or else it would be a sack fest.

If you did have 3 Oline legends to cancel my 3 Dline legends, then why bother with any legends?

Not necesarrily because you can use a 2TE formation and keep your TE as extra blockers.

It would make it a chess match.

You can have a battle with Stack Secondary vs Stacked DL, and the game would be pretty even.

[nyknicks33]

I cant agree with Gunner's thought of the legend dline and o-lineman not being as effective as being a good thing.

Why? Because there is no other position where you can get away with a generic on legend matchup with consistency. All genric secondary vs a multiple legend reciever offense? Good luck.

All generic front seven vs Barry Sanders? Have fun.

But with the D-Line, Top Tier pass rushers can get handled for most of the game by generic tackles. Why shouldnt the same matchup penalty apply?

Ive observed that a lot of gamers simply do not want to be held accountable for protecting their quarterback. I believe this is why many of them complain about manual pass rushing.

I'll restate my opinon that I believe that the O-line and D-lineman can be and are effective, but I have observed that they work best in pairs: OT/C-G-OT, DT-DE, DT-DT, DE-DE. Anything more then 2, is diminishing returns.

I tried to replicate the buddy ryan era philly eagles D-Line: Reggie White, Jerome Brown, Clyde Simmons. Should be a terror for most of these guys with all generic lines to block, right? LB's should be able tomake plays because of the attention that needs to be paid to those 3 studs..correct?

Wrong. They constantly got in each others way. Clyde Simmons was consistently invisible. I dropped him and the results where drastic..White and Brown were playing off of each other..freeing themselves or other players up to make plays.

Same with the O-line. 1 Olineman will make a marginal difference in your line play, but team 2 of them together and your line becomes much more cohesive.