I thought about it...

[XXL]

I understand some of the ratings. At first, Kobe having *only* an 87 mid range seems off, but it makes sense. I'll use an example; Ray Allen from years ago... like, 2K5. All of his shot ratings were so high, and when he had "hot" games, the ratings got boosted even more... to the point where he literally never missed. So when combining ratings with a player's tendancy to get hot or clutch, I understand those type of ratings. Considering Kobe's clutch is as high as it probably should be, his shot ratings are fine IMO. When was the last time Kobe had a game where he only missed 1-3 shots? Almost never.

Biggest issues, to me, are ratings like LeBron's post offense, Wade's shot blocking, Amare better post offense than both KG and Timothy (wtf??), the 90+ 3p shooters (there should really only be 4) and stamina. I haven't seen the stamina ratings, but this was a major issue in 2K8. If a player like Tyson Chandler averages 34 minutes as a starter, why then would his stamina be 75? That made no sense. He was dead half game.

[XXL]

David West has no business having higher post offense than Tim Duncan.

[Mr.Clutch_Knicks12]

True, and Kobe is the best non C/PF post up player in the league. His post offense should be head and shoulders above Lebron.

[Rashidi]

True, and Kobe is the best non C/PF post up player in the league. His post offense should be head and shoulders above Lebron.

I'd probably take Melo but the point still stands.

[24ballin24]

I'd probably take Melo but the point still stands.

Yea Kobe and Melo.

[Krucialist]

Post some stats to support your opinions. Im not arguing with yall but you should back up your opinions with hard data. Otherwise, how can someone take what you say seriously when we all know that fandom can blind a man from the truth about their favorite players.

[Rashidi]

Post some stats to support your opinions. Im not arguing with yall but you should back up your opinions with hard data. Otherwise, how can someone take what you say seriously when we all know that fandom can blind a man from the truth about their favorite players.

1. Hard data isn't good enough for 75% of the people on this forum.
2. There's not even a debate.

[Krucialist]

1. Hard data isn't good enough for 75% of the people on this forum.
2. There's not even a debate.

I wasnt talking about for the people. I have learned that you cant really change the minds of the masses on most things, factual evidence or not.

I was just saying that if dude wants to make a legitimate case to the Insider then he will need something that cant be brushed aside as simple opinion. I mean the man has only posted on the forums 7 times. Im not even sure he is real, as you eluded to in your blog.

[XXL]

Post some stats to support your opinions. Im not arguing with yall but you should back up your opinions with hard data. Otherwise, how can someone take what you say seriously when we all know that fandom can blind a man from the truth about their favorite players.

No idea what you're eluding to, but you don't need "stats" when you can watch a game and see with your own eyes how effective a player is in the post. With that said, they're right... Kobe and Carmelo do stand out at their positions, and any analyst/reporter, biased or not, would probably agree.

[Krucialist]

No idea what you're eluding to, but you don't need "stats" when you can watch a game and see with your own eyes how effective a player is in the post. With that said, they're right... Kobe and Carmelo do stand out at their positions, and any analyst/reporter, biased or not, would probably agree.

I am absolutely not arguing with you. I agree. My only point is that without stats then your arguement is easily pushed aside. forums are filled with the "if you just watch the game then you would see...." argument. That leaves too much up to the perceptions of the person watching the game. Some people will lie to themselves to the bitter end. If someone watches the same game as you and comes away with a different opinion about a player's abilities, how else can you prove your right? Stats. You did this in the first post with regards to Tyson Chandler. There was no way around the fact that his avg minutes per game were much higher than his fatigue rating allowed in 2k8.

So once again I am not arguing with you. Im just saying make your case with stats and there is no way you can possibly be considered as wrong unless they counter with more stats, which I highly doubt the insider will do.

[XXL]

No argument at all, and I see what you're getting at. But certain things can't always have written or statistical proof behind. Like if a player has a great spin move in the post, there's no stat to aid this opinion... so in the end, it's just an opinion.

I could say, statistically, Dwyane Wade makes a higher percentage of his midrange shots than Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, so this should mean his midrange should be higher in NBA 2K9. But if someone watches the games, they'll see Wade attempts less shots than Bryant outside the paint, so those fewer shots help his percentage.

Basically, there's always going to be two sides.

[Rashidi]

I could say, statistically, Dwyane Wade makes a higher percentage of his midrange shots than Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, so this should mean his midrange should be higher in NBA 2K9. But if someone watches the games, they'll see Wade attempts less shots than Bryant outside the paint, so those fewer shots help his percentage.

I'm assuming you were just using Wade as an example, since he doesn't have a better mid-range% than Kobe.

Also, Kobe's percentage was down in 2008 despite him taking fewer shots than the previous two seasons. His diminished accuracy was likely due a bit to his injured finger on his shooting hand,

I've never really followed the "more attempts = lower percentage". It's more about how many of those shots are contested or not. JJ Redick averaged 27 pts or so in college, only because he was the featured player running off screens on every play. He was obviously getting lots of attempts but still converting a high amount because he wasn't taking bad shots.

Essentially you've got to be able to distinguish which players are taking shots in motion, off the dribble, with hands in their face, etc as opposed to guys like Kyle Korver or Michael Doleac who are almost always catching and shooting an uncontested shot.

Which is fortunately pretty easy in most cases.

[Krucialist]

No argument at all, and I see what you're getting at. But certain things can't always have written or statistical proof behind. Like if a player has a great spin move in the post, there's no stat to aid this opinion... so in the end, it's just an opinion.

I could say, statistically, Dwyane Wade makes a higher percentage of his midrange shots than Kobe Bryant and LeBron James, so this should mean his midrange should be higher in NBA 2K9. But if someone watches the games, they'll see Wade attempts less shots than Bryant outside the paint, so those fewer shots help his percentage.

Basically, there's always going to be two sides.

Agreed. There will be situations where there just are no stats to support your claims.

I would say that the fact that Wade attempts less shots than Kobe is a stat in itself and that didnt particularly prove your point but you certainly got me on the spin move thing. To that all i can say is that spin moves dont have ratings so it is null and void. But at this point i am just arguing back for arguments sake...

But you did just inspire me to make another thread in here.

[Rashidi]

To that all i can say is that spin moves dont have ratings so it is null and void.

Post offense rating.

[XXL]

I'm assuming you were just using Wade as an example, since he doesn't have a better mid-range% than Kobe.

Wade was 48%, Kobe's was 45%. This was 1-2 years ago.

Unfortunately, I just can't recall the site I read it on.

Also, Kobe's percentage was down in 2008 despite him taking fewer shots than the previous two seasons. His diminished accuracy was likely due a bit to his injured finger on his shooting hand

Or, it could be due to the possibility he took even more jumpshots and drove less because Bynum (Pau later on) took space away from the driving lanes. One stat that clearly supports this is that he took the fewest amount of free throw attempts in 4 years.

But anyway, I'll always believe if you're an accurate shooter, your percentage is inflated if you're not forcing those shots. Steve Nash has benefited greatly from this.

[Krucialist]

I wasnt talking about a back down and spin off the defender move. I was talking about just dribbling the ball and spinning.

I guess this could be controlled by the handles rating but it doesnt really effect the quality of the spin, just whether or not the player will lose the ball while spinning.

[Rashidi]

I wasnt talking about a back down and spin off the defender move. I was talking about just dribbling the ball and spinning.

I guess this could be controlled by the handles rating but it doesnt really effect the quality of the spin, just whether or not the player will lose the ball while spinning.

Handle also affects how hard it is to get stripped, which is essentially the "quality".

Players with higher handle rating also have access to the more advanced dribbling packages, which means crisper spin moves.

[Krucialist]

But those packages are assigned to the player though. Increasing a player's handles wont get him a more advanced dribbling package. Raise their handles to whatever you want and anyone with an awkward package will still be just as awkward

[Rashidi]

Wade was 48%, Kobe's was 45%. This was 1-2 years ago.

Unfortunately, I just can't recall the site I read it on.

Here's their actual mid-range numbers

D. Wade
2008: 123-334 (.368) (51 gms)
2007: 127-336 (.377) (51 gms)
2006: 161-406 (.396) (75 gms)
2005: 136-317 (.429) (77 gms)
Total: 547-1393 (.392)

Wade was playing hurt for most of 2007-2008 which could have affected his percentage, although he did settle for the mid-range more often when hurt. He averaged 6.5 MRA in those injury years compared to 5.4 in 06 and 4.1 in 05.

K. Bryant
2008: 185-492 (.376) (82 gms)
2007: 240-564 (.425) (77 gms)
2006: 302-717 (.421) (80 gms)
2005: 102-264 (.386) (66 gms)
Total: 829-2037 (.406) (305 gms)

Kobe averaged 4 MRA the year he played with 3 hall of famers. That jumped up to 9 MRA when they all left in 2006, and he's the only player in the last four years with a 300 MR season. That declined to 7.3 the following year, and 6.0 in 2008. He played with an injury to his shooting hand that may have played a factor, but he also made a more conscious effort to go to the rim than in the previous two years. He was also getting his teammates involved much more which lead to a shot decrease even before the injury so I don't think it played a factor here (especially since he was still bombing threes).



Or, it could be due to the possibility he took even more jumpshots and drove less because Bynum (Pau later on) took space away from the driving lanes.

As shown, the opposite actually happened. Bynum and Gasol actually make it easier for Kobe to drive because he doesn't get triple teamed. I also illustrated that he didn't start shooting all those mid-range shots until Shaq left.

One stat that clearly supports this is that he took the fewest amount of free throw attempts in 4 years.

He only took 9 FTA instead of 10, which is easily attributed to his decrease in shots, and a 2 minute PT decrease.

But anyway, I'll always believe if you're an accurate shooter, your percentage is inflated if you're not forcing those shots. Steve Nash has benefited greatly from this.

There are a lot of PGs like Nash, it's typically not a position where you're forcing up shots unless you're Gilbert Arenas or Allen Iverson. There aren't too many who jack up many mid-range shots especially since the 3pt shot is much more efficient.

Only four PGs took 300 MR shots last year. Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Jose Calderon, and Raymond Felton. Looking at SGs on the other hand, Tracy McGrady took over 500, Kobe nearly got there with 492, Monta Ellis and Andre Iguodala both topped 400, and there are about 8-10 SGs who topped 300.

[Rashidi]

But those packages are assigned to the player though. Increasing a player's handles wont get him a more advanced dribbling package. Raise their handles to whatever you want and anyone with an awkward package will still be just as awkward

Yeah but it's not like we'd ever give Shaq an 85 handle, players with high handle ratings have the best dribble packages, and vice versa.

Two players with a 75 and 80 handle and the same package wont be any different but the 75 will get stripped much easier.

[Krucialist]

Yeah but it's not like we'd ever give Shaq an 85 handle, players with high handle ratings have the best dribble packages, and vice versa.

Two players with a 75 and 80 handle and the same package wont be any different but the 75 will get stripped much easier.

I agree with you. in the context of online games or just exhibitions, my point is invalid. But in an association, I have to go change the packages myself to better fit people who's ratings have risen. Ideally I shouldnt have to do that.

Id prefer a system where the ratings determined which animations became possible for players, so for a player to dunk like a flashy guard, they would have to have the ratings of a flashy guard (i.e. high dunk, vertical). That way as ratings went up or down, players would become more able to do things or lose the ability to do things.

[XXL]

Good stuff, Rashidi. I'm stumped.

I wish I could find that site again, but I guess it was probably stats from during the season and not the completed accumulated percentage. Oh well.

[Rashidi]

Id prefer a system where the ratings determined which animations became possible for players, so for a player to dunk like a flashy guard, they would have to have the ratings of a flashy guard (i.e. high dunk, vertical). That way as ratings went up or down, players would become more able to do things or lose the ability to do things.

I'd prefer that too, as I don't really see the big difference between most of the dribbling packages. Dunks are more stylistic though so I don't think that would work too well.

[Rashidi]

Good stuff, Rashidi. I'm stumped.

I wish I could find that site again, but I guess it was probably stats from during the season and not the completed accumulated percentage. Oh well.

Wasn't trying to stump anybody just regurgitating previous observations I've made.

My shooting stats came from nba.com/hotspots and you can also find some at 82games.com

[Krucialist]

I'd prefer that too, as I don't really see the big difference between most of the dribbling packages. Dunks are more stylistic though so I don't think that would work too well.

It would work but then you would have to incorporate personalities into the actualy gameplay dynamic. Certain players lend themselves to certian types of expression based on their personality. This is why Tim Duncan always looks bored after dunking while Kenyon Martin tries to bring the rim down.

If u assigned player personalities to each animation to go along with tendancies and ratings then you could have quite the system...