I need you Zebras to go under the hood for a moment please.

[Numbski]

I just got done playing Mihn, and won off of what was (in real time) a really bizarre play. Having had a chance to look at it several times, it seems pretty cut and dry, but Mihn disagrees. What do you guys think? Did the game get it right? Or is Mihn right? (warning, volume is a touch high, might want to adjust your speakers down a bit)

http://www.stickam.com/viewMedia.do?mId=181344788

[mmasajo]

Safety........

[twosilk]

safety he took the ball and attempted to advance the ball, therefore the ball is still in play and since he fumbled the ball out of the back of the endzone safety is correct, had he ran the ball back it would have been a touchdown, he possessed it and never downed the ball, there fore the game got it right had he just laid down with the ball no fumble, but he made effort to run with the ball.

[hibachiii]

Safety.

So, did you end up winning because of it?

[Numbski]

Yeah, final was 16-14. I wish I had recorded the whole game. Mihn has found a way to turn a screen pass into an option run with Montana, and although I've figured out how to contain it, it took 4-5 tries to do so, which means sprinkled into a normal gameplan, it would be downright lethal.

[Valdarez]

A fumble in the end zone, which is what the lateral basically is, results in a Safety. The game called it right.

[MINATAURO]

Safety. Did he try and pitch it?

[Numbski]

Safety. Did he try and pitch it?

Certainly looks that way to me, although I can't for the life of me figure out who he was trying to lateral it to.

[ballin5692]

Ok here is the rule regarding fumbles out of the endzone. If you fumble out of your own endzone it is a safety for the other team. If you fumble out of the opposing teams endzone that is a touchback and im pretty sure the other team gets the ball but they get no points. Minh was just wrong and dont tell him I said this but he is a sore loser haha.

Also he is probably thinking of the rule when you run out of the back of the endzone. That is a touchback when you run out of the back of the endzone unless you pasted the goaline. You can run out but you cant fumble out.

P.S. Remember dont tell him I said that.

[ulose22]

After review, the ruling on the field stands...

[nflhitman]

He always trys and pitch the ball to the defender next to him.

[zhaoyun707]

Dang it, I feel like Mike Nolan. The challenge of the field goal LOL.

[zhaoyun707]

Yeah, final was 16-14. I wish I had recorded the whole game. Mihn has found a way to turn a screen pass into an option run with Montana, and although I've figured out how to contain it, it took 4-5 tries to do so, which means sprinkled into a normal gameplan, it would be downright lethal.

You know you like that play? Isn't it pure genius? Don't tell others, its only between you and me. :)

[Birdman1702]

You are all wrong...it's a touchback!!! And here is the proof...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football

Safeties are relatively rare. Note that, though even more rare, the team initially on "offense" during a down can score a safety if a player of the original defense gains possession of the ball in front of his own goal line and then carries the ball or fumbles it into his own end zone where it becomes dead. However, if the ball becomes dead behind the goal line of the team in possession and its "opponent" is responsible for the ball being there (for instance, if the defense intercepts a forward pass in its own end zone and the ball becomes dead before the ball is advanced out of the end zone) it is a touchback: no points are scored and the team last in possession keeps possession with a first down at its own 20 yard line.

[zhaoyun707]

You are all wrong...it's a touchback!!! And here is the proof...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football

I am not MIKE NOLAN, I know how to CHALLENGE!

[ballin5692]

You used wikipedia birdman go to nfl.com and read the rule book there. I dont trsut wikipedia.

[Valdarez]

You are all wrong...it's a touchback!!! And here is the proof...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_footballThe quote you used isn't applicable to this situation. That's a completely different scenario.

[Birdman1702]

Is this better?? It doesn't spell it out as much as the wikipedia page. Basically, since the defenses possession started in his own endzone, a safety cannot occur until the ball is advanced past the goalline.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/safety2

Examples of Non-Safety:

(b) Player intercepts a pass in his own end zone and is downed in the end zone, even after recovering in the end zone. Impetus came from passing team, not from defense. (Touchback)

[ballin5692]

If you fumble in the endzone and it goes out of the endzone its a safety. If you run out its a touchback.

[Birdman1702]

That's only the case if the possession starts outside of the endzone.

[Birdman1702]

The quote you used isn't applicable to this situation. That's a completely different scenario.

Sorry for the double post, but how is it a completely different scenario???

However, if the ball becomes dead behind the goal line of the team in possession and its "opponent" is responsible for the ball being there (for instance, if the defense intercepts a forward pass in its own end zone and the ball becomes dead before the ball is advanced out of the end zone) it is a touchback: no points are scored and the team last in possession keeps possession with a first down at its own 20 yard line.

1) Defense intercepts pass in own endzone...check!!!
2) Ball becomes dead before it is advance out of the endzone...check!!!

It doesn't matter how the ball becomes dead...since minh gained possession in his own endzone, he cannot give up a safety until the ball is advanced out of the end zone.

[dtrain053]

It's a safety. He can run around all he wants but tossing the ball out of the endzone is a fumble. Which means impetus is on the defender.

NFL Rules regarding a safety.

Safety
The important factor in a safety is impetus. Two points are scored for the opposing team when the ball is dead on or behind a team’s own goal line if the impetus came from a player on that team.

Examples of Safety:


(a) Blocked punt goes out of kicking team’s end zone. Impetus was provided by punting team. The block only changes direction of ball, not impetus.

(b) Ball carrier retreats from field of play into his own end zone and is downed. Ball carrier provides impetus.

(c) Offensive team commits a foul and spot of enforcement is behind its own goal line.

(d) Player on receiving team muffs punt and, trying to get ball, forces or illegally kicks (creating new impetus) it into end zone where it goes out of the end zone or is recovered by a member of the receiving team in the end zone.

Examples of Non-Safety:


(a) Player intercepts a pass with both feet inbounds in the field of play and his momentum carries him into his own end zone. Ball is put in play at spot of interception.

(b) Player intercepts a pass in his own end zone and is downed in the end zone, even after recovering in the end zone. Impetus came from passing team, not from defense. (Touchback)

(c) Player passes from behind his own goal line. Opponent bats down ball in end zone. (Incomplete pass)


This scenerio is close to example D. Basically if Lott was tackled in the endzone there is no safety. He however in effect fumbled, there for it is a safety.

[Birdman1702]

How is a muffed punt close to an INT in the endzone

[dtrain053]

How is a muffed punt close to an INT in the endzone

It's not but Lott created new impetus by fumbling or in his case tossing it out of the endzone.

Your missing a important element. He wasnt downed in the endzone. He fumbled out of the endzone.

[Numbski]

Regardless of whether the call is right or wrong, can we step back a moment and admire exactly how well coded the logic is in this game for the refs? I mean yeah, there's hiccups, but holy cow - I can only begin to imagine having to write routines that determine impetus. ???

[zhaoyun707]

Regardless of whether the call is right or wrong, can we step back a moment and admire exactly how well coded the logic is in this game for the refs? I mean yeah, there's hiccups, but holy cow - I can only begin to imagine having to write routines that determine impetus. ???

Do you like my cool play?!

[squitsquat]

Ok here is the rule regarding fumbles out of the endzone. If you fumble out of your own endzone it is a safety for the other team. If you fumble out of the opposing teams endzone that is a touchback and im pretty sure the other team gets the ball but they get no points. Minh was just wrong and dont tell him I said this but he is a sore loser haha.

Also he is probably thinking of the rule when you run out of the back of the endzone. That is a touchback when you run out of the back of the endzone unless you pasted the goaline. You can run out but you cant fumble out.

P.S. Remember dont tell him I said that.you cant run out of the back of your endzone its a safety but you probably meant the other team's endzone.

but it looks like a safety to me

[Numbski]

No, he said it right. I thew the pass into his end zone. Had I possessed the ball at any time in his endzone, it would be a touchdown. Had he been downed in his endzone, since I provided the impetus that put him there, it would have been a touchback. Suddenly I'm having dumb moment - if the momentum of intercepting the ball had carried him out of the endzone, it's a touchback. If he INTENTIONALLY ran out of the endzone....I tend to want to say touchback since he mad to effort to progress the football, thus I still provided the impetus. Fumbling the ball out of the endzone means that he possessed the ball, and either by accident or intentionally, the ball was put back into play by him, and since he last possessed it, it's a safety. Again, if I had possessed it at any point in the endzone, it's 6 points, so it's not possible for me to possess the ball in his endzone and then fumble it out. If it *were* somehow possible, then he would get the ball at his 20 and it would be a touchback.

[Numbski]

Do you like my cool play?!

Define "like". :P

It's not cheating. It's annoying, and it's effective. The urge to take a fly swatter after Joe Montana and Roger Craig - it's hard to define that as a "like".

[zhaoyun707]

Define "like". :P

It's not cheating. It's annoying, and it's effective. The urge to take a fly swatter after Joe Montana and Roger Craig - it's hard to define that as a "like".

Do you think that its a cool play? Would you try it with Theisman and Okoye?

[Birdman1702]

It's not but Lott created new impetus by fumbling or in his case tossing it out of the endzone.

Your missing a important element. He wasnt downed in the endzone. He fumbled out of the endzone.


It doesn't matter....in your punt example, the punt was muffed in the regular fiel of play. If he muffed a punt in the end zone then kicked it out, the result would be a touchback. Just as a test, try to field a kickoff in the end zone and lateral it out of bounds....what call does the game make then? That's as about as close as you'll be able to re-create pretty easily.

[dtrain053]

OK two things-

1. I bolded the wrong part.
a) Blocked punt goes out of kicking team’s end zone. Impetus was provided by punting team. The block only changes direction of ball, not impetus.

A fumble is like a blocked punt, in the sence that impetus belongs to the guy fumbling.

2. Here is something from wiki (I know, I know)

Touchbacks occur when

A kickoff enters the end zone and is fielded, but not returned, or a kickoff that goes through and out of the end zone.
A punt enters the end zone, or a player enters the end zone while attempting to field a punt.
A ball carrier fumbles the ball within the field of play, and the ball either goes through the end zone without being recovered, or is recovered by the team that fumbled in their own end zone. (If the fumble occurs in the end zone, however, the result is a safety if the team that fumbled recovers, or a touchdown if the team on defense recovers.) A defensive player intercepts a forward pass in the defender's end zone, and then makes an effort or no effort to return the pass. (A forward pass thrown through and out of the end zone, however, is an incomplete pass, and does not result in a touchback.)
If the kicking team kicks the football into the receiving teams end zone on a kickoff and the receiving team recovers in their end zone and makes an attempt to return the ball but the receiving team is tackled before crossing the goal line it is ruled a touchback

[Numbski]

Do you think that its a cool play? Would you try it with Theisman and Okoye?

If I wanted to see Theismann get murdered after 3 or 4 hits, sure. :P

[Numbski]

It doesn't matter....in your punt example, the punt was muffed in the regular fiel of play. If he muffed a punt in the end zone then kicked it out, the result would be a touchback. Just as a test, try to field a kickoff in the end zone and lateral it out of bounds....what call does the game make then? That's as about as close as you'll be able to re-create pretty easily.

I think the difference might be that after the INT, he made a football move to advance the football. Had it been a forced fumble at that point, the ball would have been live, and if recovered in the endzone would have been either a touchdown or a touchback. If the ball is live, and goes out of the endzone, it becomes a safety if the "defending" team touched it last.

[dtrain053]

I think the difference might be that after the INT, he made a football move to advance the football. Had it been a forced fumble at that point, the ball would have been live, and if recovered in the endzone would have been either a touchdown or a touchback. If the ball is live, and goes out of the endzone, it becomes a safety if the "defending" team touched it last.

100% Correct

[tpaterniti]

I don't think that is a safety. I think it is a touchback. I thought that before I even looked at the rulebook and now thta I look at it I am even more sure it is a touchback. Having possession or making a football move is irrelevent. If a defender catches an INT or recovers a fumble in the endzone and fumbles it himself out of the endzone that should be a touchback.

[Gtboys34]

im going with touchback as well. if he'd run out of the endzone it would have been a touchback so touchback it is

[Big M]

I think it's a touchback. If I'm not mistaken (and I haven't looked at all these excerpts of the rulebook, so I might be), a safety is when the offense (which would actually be the D when Lott intercepts it) starts with the ball outside of the endzone (or at least the LOS is out of the endzone), then the ball carrier goes into the endzone and gets tackled or fumbles it out. If the ball starts in the endzone (as it did in this situation for the defense) and Lott doesn't get out of the endzone, it's a touchback.

For example, if someone kicks it to me and the kick goes into the endzone, my return man fumbles the ball out of the endzone, it'd be a touchback. I think it's the same kind of situation here.

Either way, why are you pitching the ball?

[zhaoyun707]

I think it's a touchback. If I'm not mistaken (and I haven't looked at all these excerpts of the rulebook, so I might be), a safety is when the offense (which would actually be the D when Lott intercepts it) starts with the ball outside of the endzone (or at least the LOS is out of the endzone), then the ball carrier goes into the endzone and gets tackled or fumbles it out. If the ball starts in the endzone (as it did in this situation for the defense) and Lott doesn't get out of the endzone, it's a touchback.

For example, if someone kicks it to me and the kick goes into the endzone, my return man fumbles the ball out of the endzone, it'd be a touchback. I think it's the same kind of situation here.

Either way, why are you pitching the ball?

Michael Vick was going to kill my poor dog... :(

[Big M]

Michael Vick was going to kill my poor dog... :(

But Matt Ryan won't :thumbsup:

[zhaoyun707]

But Matt Ryan won't :thumbsup:

:dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:: dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::d ance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance::dance:

[dtrain053]

Maybe I'm interperating the rule incorrectly. I still believe its a safety. Here's the defintion of a safety.

Safety: The situation in which the ball is dead on or behind a team’s own goal if the impetus comes from a player on that team. Two points are scored for the opposing team.

Touchback: When a ball is dead on or behind a team’s own goal line, provided the impetus came from an opponent and provided it is not a touchdown or a missed field goal.

http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/definitions
Impetus by defintion is caused by Lott who "fumbled" the ball. There for isn't it a safety?

Or am I placing impetus on the wrong player?

[Birdman1702]

The impetus, in this case, came from the offense throwing the ball into the endzone. What Lott did doesn't really matter in this situation.

If you read the excerpt I posted closely, it says "if a player intercepts a pass in his own endzone and the balls becomes dead" (not the player getting tackled or touched down) then it is a touchback if the ball never advances past the goalline.

[magex2112]

Go Birdman! I completely agree with you. My first thought was, "that's a touchback."

[dtrain053]

The impetus, in this case, came from the offense throwing the ball into the endzone. What Lott did doesn't really matter in this situation.

If you read the excerpt I posted closely, it says "if a player intercepts a pass in his own endzone and the balls becomes dead" (not the player getting tackled or touched down) then it is a touchback if the ball never advances past the goalline.



If that is still impetus then yes you are 100% correct and it should be a touchback. I'm just taking impetus and giving it to Lott for fumbling.

I can't honestly think of an actual example of this particular situation. Probably because most defenders will just kneel it, and certainly won't try pitching it out of the endzone;)

I've been trying to find a real life example to no avail. I wonder if anyone can find something.

[amid]

I've been trying to find a real life example to no avail.
no one in real life is that stupid :cool:

[dtrain053]

no one in real life is that stupid :cool:

It may be the one thing that has NEVER actually happened in a NFL game. I can't find squat.

[nflhitman]

It may be the one thing that has NEVER actually happened in a NFL game. I can't find squat.

Than it is not SIM and therefore minh is a CHEESER!!!!

;););)

[zhaoyun707]

Who is this Minh? I am Mihn. :)

[Numbski]

"That ref is a jacka**."

"No, I do believe that's a zebra."

[Numbski]

no one in real life is that stupid :cool:

I'm not so sure about that. I think he plays for the Eagles. ;)

[Gtboys34]

alot of ed hochuli's bro's up in here..