I'm losing my mind.....I think....

[Gunther]

So humor me here.....
Most of us agree there is a randomness to created players hidden abilities.
Is there a randomness to performance of teams when you create them? Are there hidden overall ratings categories for each team? Now I'll get into why I ask this.

First off when you copy playbooks you copy over the whole team setup such as substitutions and such. So, if there were such ratings these things would be copied too. I had a couple teams namely my Raiders team, my Titans and my Browns Teams that I would win a high percentage of games with and they always performed well for the most part. Guys in the secondary would make plays and were generally in the right position when needed. I know amid has mentioned Killah's players not making bone head moves or taking retarded angles on the ball. So I made a new team for the TBL league. Well in league play with that team Im 5-5. I started messing with the playbook and added alot of plays and what not so I copied that playbook to all my teams. Well since I did that I cant beat the biggest rookies on earth. I cant make a field goal to save my life. My kickoffs are 5 yards shorter. when people go to kick field goals I am constantly sitting there with 3 players standing 20 yards down field that cannot be moved. At the snap of the ball on defense my guys consistently take off running in the worst possible directions. I went from getting at minimum 1 interception a game to having balls bounce off my face every time. No changes to the teams have been made its the exact same generic players and legends as before the only change has been the copying the playbooks over.

I'm to the point I am considering making a new team and playbook from scratch just to put my insanity to rest.

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc73/tjspeaks/bugfv2kq5.gif

[Black and Blue]

Team makeup does matter. Having too many legends espically high tier on either side of the ball will not get you an explosive offense or defense. When you stack an offense or defense, your team will not perform at a high level. Is you team built too heavily on one side?

You need to have leadership. you will certainly have a hell of a lot of dropped balls, defenders making awkward moves in opposite direction to the ball carrier and so fourth if you do not have leadership.

Or you are probably in a rut. more than likely this is what it is. Or perhaps just being in a league...

[alliance4g63]

Naw I notice the same thing, it has nothing to do with the leadership ability. That is one of the main reasons why I stopped playing this game and tested out the darkside(madden). The randomness and hidden abilities used to really tick me off. There are times where I see people have the same guys as me play like Gods for them but like crap for me. The game is just random that way. I guess it was programmed that way so the games have that type of feel but I personally don't like it. I want my team to play the same way day in and day out with minimum randomness.

Maybe I need to rebuild my team as well.

[Valdarez]

One year later and we're still wondering how this stuff works. Shameful. 2K Sports should have explained this months ago. I don't believe there is anything to how the team is created. I do believe there is some key to how leadership is used. Some positions seem to provide team wide leadership abilities, while others seem to give a huge boost to their own position. Then again, Leadership might just be random. 2K Sports does not want to support this game or their fans by answering a few questions, for whatever reason, so we may never know. :(

[Kdrontle]

I haven't really noticed this too much. I notice a game-to-game randomness. To me it appears as though when a game starts either momentum strongly swings in a direction, or it is already set in a direction. Some games my pass defense plays better than it should and other games I consider deleting them :).

I think momentum just gets earned in one aspect of the game or another and adjustments need to get made accordingly.

Most my CAP players perform as expected except for my pitiful Bam Morris.

[Black and Blue]

One year later and we're still wondering how this stuff works. Shameful. 2K Sports should have explained this months ago. I don't believe there is anything to how the team is created. I do believe there is some key to how leadership is used. Some positions seem to provide team wide leadership abilities, while others seem to give a huge boost to their own position. Then again, Leadership might just be random. 2K Sports does not want to support this game or their fans by answering a few questions, for whatever reason, so we may never know. :(

I agree that explanations might be good for certain things but in general they will only make this game less likable.

You think people have excuses for why they lose now...if the above came true, noone would feel they lost on their own or just plain got beat. Your forums would be completely plastered with the "this got me, why?" or it's "that dreaded focus bug' or "yeah the cpu just had the momentum prealocated to your team this game" or a billion others.

[Valdarez]

I disagree that the provision of knowledge would lead to more complaints with regards to why people 'lose' a game. However, it most would stir debate around how the game works and the design decisions. At this point, I'm of the opinion that 2K Sports wants this game to fail. They haven't given us any information on how the game works nearly one year later and by doing so are clearly showing that they have no vested interest in it. This is obviously just my opinion, based on what I have seen over the course of the last year (or rather, what I have not seen).

If the game would receive a few changes / updates, most of the problems would go away.

1. Explain how the abilities work (easy / no time at all)
2. Fix the zones so they cover the wide part of the field (takes care of outs / hot corner problem)
3. Fix the Focus Bug
4. Reduce the effectiveness of Cadence
5. Make the D-Lineman more effective
6. Fix the lead blocking on the O-Line
7. Fix speed boost on fade route
8. Fix FG block glitch(s)
9. Fix the arm reach animation that occurs even when players aren't juking (no idea why)

I'm sure I left some out, but 1-3 are the big ones that would ensure this game is enjoyable for years to come. As far as I'm concerned the defense in this game is fundamentally broken until they fix that Focus Bug and the Zone coverage on the wide part of the field. No idea how they missed those problems. Was it a big problem in 2K 5 (wide part of the field?)?

[Black and Blue]

I cant say about 2k5 because I never played it. But i am sure that this is a step up from that game in every respect since it was released 3 years later.

Hot corner does need to be addressed. Same as the focus "glitch". I dont believe it to be the game killer as some profess it to be and if they do resolve it the least that would do is stop the people from crying glitch when they lose.

[Black and Blue]

Abilities are what they say they are. Alotta people make abilities in to what they aren't.

Here's the simple truth. If you have two players with excatly the same attributes from their build to their abilites. They will still play totally different (unless if they are created...even then it might not play the same).

Abilities mask what the game is built on which is still a numbers system. It's more an aesthetic than a true value system.

[kcxiv]

I notice nothing different. I do know sometimes the players dont play exactly the same, but that doesnt bother me because there has only been 1 team in NFL history from game 1 to game 16 that prettymuch played at the same level all year and that was the 2007 New England Patriots. Maybe the 72 Dolphins as well, but i wasn't alive back then to watch all their games. I am fine with ups and downs.

We all know that in real football as well, there is some randomness to a few things. People imo just try to dissect every ****** thing and its just a video game. Could they explain every ****** thing they do? probably, but what video game company does? I really dont know of any.

I also don't think they should patch it for their hardcore fans. game is more then a year old. It makes no sense to try to put out a patch for something that a few thousand people still play. Imo, makes no sense at all. They have other games to make. The economy is bad. Move forward, no reason to go back and work on something thats out of date for them.

I am not really agree'ing with Valderez at all on alot of his issues.

[nyknicks33]

I can usually tell within a series of downs what kind of AI day it is going to be for my team.

Some games are just like that, and I try to keep my composure during those moments.

[Valdarez]

I notice nothing different. I do know sometimes the players dont play exactly the same, but that doesnt bother me because there has only been 1 team in NFL history from game 1 to game 16 that prettymuch played at the same level all year and that was the 2007 New England Patriots. Maybe the 72 Dolphins as well, but i wasn't alive back then to watch all their games. I am fine with ups and downs.

We all know that in real football as well, there is some randomness to a few things. People imo just try to dissect every ****** thing and its just a video game. Could they explain every ****** thing they do? probably, but what video game company does? I really dont know of any.

I also don't think they should patch it for their hardcore fans. game is more then a year old. It makes no sense to try to put out a patch for something that a few thousand people still play. Imo, makes no sense at all. They have other games to make. The economy is bad. Move forward, no reason to go back and work on something thats out of date for them.

I am not really agree'ing with Valderez at all on alot of his issues.
I know you play games online, but I really question if you have played any competitive games online, or if you have been competitive when playing them online. Could they explain everything they do? That's an extremely unclear and broad statement. The problem is they haven't explained how the basic abilities work. That's really the only explanation the fan base has been looking for from the launch of the game. Maybe you're ok playing a game without understanding the fundamentals of how it works, but I'm not, and neither are most folks who are going to be be playing competitively online. They want to know how to build the best team they can, and how to counter various abilities with their team builds. I can't think of a single RTS game where I'm still wondering what the hit points, defense values, attack values, or movement speed are, yet here we are a year later and we still don't understand the basics of many of the attributes (most notability 'Leadership'). If you don't know of any companies that haven't explained how the games work, then you either haven't played very many games, or you haven't taken the time to learn them inside and out, which is what you must do in order to compete online.

As for the patch. It should have been released last year, by December at the latest. To say that a company doesn't have to produce a quality product, or to fix the problems with their product because there's not enough folks who bought it is pure bunk. If this were a pay as you go service, you can bet your money they'd have a patch out, probably ASAP to avoid loss of customers.

"Move forward, no reason to go back and work on something thats out of date for them."

That's pretty much what they did when they didn't hit their sales numbers. It's a horrible mind set, and that's how companies fail. The consumer relationship is circular. You feed it, they feed you.

[alliance4g63]

I disagree that the provision of knowledge would lead to more complaints with regards to why people 'lose' a game. However, it most would stir debate around how the game works and the design decisions. At this point, I'm of the opinion that 2K Sports wants this game to fail. They haven't given us any information on how the game works nearly one year later and by doing so are clearly showing that they have no vested interest in it. This is obviously just my opinion, based on what I have seen over the course of the last year (or rather, what I have not seen).

If the game would receive a few changes / updates, most of the problems would go away.

1. Explain how the abilities work (easy / no time at all)
2. Fix the zones so they cover the wide part of the field (takes care of outs / hot corner problem)
3. Fix the Focus Bug
4. Reduce the effectiveness of Cadence
5. Make the D-Lineman more effective
6. Fix the lead blocking on the O-Line
7. Fix speed boost on fade route
8. Fix FG block glitch(s)
9. Fix the arm reach animation that occurs even when players aren't juking (no idea why)

I'm sure I left some out, but 1-3 are the big ones that would ensure this game is enjoyable for years to come. As far as I'm concerned the defense in this game is fundamentally broken until they fix that Focus Bug and the Zone coverage on the wide part of the field. No idea how they missed those problems. Was it a big problem in 2K 5 (wide part of the field?)?


Agree 100%. Madden is a joke but even that game got patched. I don't see why football don't get patched more often. Most online games these days should get patched every few months and most do.

2k5 did have zone coverage problems to the wide side of the field but not as bad. The only routes that were problematic in 2k5 were any type of corner route. You thought the out route is bad on APF? In 2k5 alot of people ONLY threw the corner route like it was the only route in their playbook.

What is the focus bug?

[Superbuffundo]

What is the focus bug?

Where you Defender loses focus or puts his focus somewhere else.I would also say that when you man a guy to a guy that is already manned and so noone is man to a guy.(dude left uncovered)

[alliance4g63]

I know you play games online, but I really question if you have played any competitive games online, or if you have been competitive when playing them online. Could they explain everything they do? That's an extremely unclear and broad statement. The problem is they haven't explained how the basic abilities work. That's really the only explanation the fan base has been looking for from the launch of the game. Maybe you're ok playing a game without understanding the fundamentals of how it works, but I'm not, and neither are most folks who are going to be be playing competitively online. They want to know how to build the best team they can, and how to counter various abilities with their team builds. I can't think of a single RTS game where I'm still wondering what the hit points, defense values, attack values, or movement speed are, yet here we are a year later and we still don't understand the basics of many of the attributes (most notability 'Leadership'). If you don't know of any companies that haven't explained how the games work, then you either haven't played very many games, or you haven't taken the time to learn them inside and out, which is what you must do in order to compete online.

As for the patch. It should have been released last year, by December at the latest. To say that a company doesn't have to produce a quality product, or to fix the problems with their product because there's not enough folks who bought it is pure bunk. If this were a pay as you go service, you can bet your money they'd have a patch out, probably ASAP to avoid loss of customers.

"Move forward, no reason to go back and work on something thats out of date for them."

That's pretty much what they did when they didn't hit their sales numbers. It's a horrible mind set, and that's how companies fail. The consumer relationship is circular. You feed it, they feed you.

The RTS reference is spot on. That is the majority of the reason that I stopped playing the game for a while. I hated the abilities. I love the idea but it was executed poorly. I think me and you had a long discussion back in the day about how it can be fixed. I hated having my soft hands guys catch worse than guys that didn't have that ability. Or not knowing why some bronze players have 5 abilities and some gold players only have 3 or none, it's nuts!

So yea, alot needs to be addressed. I will continue to play the game because of league play, hoping one day they may revive the series(doubtful).

[alliance4g63]

Where you Defender loses focus or puts his focus somewhere else.I would also say that when you man a guy to a guy that is already manned and so noone is man to a guy.(dude left uncovered)

Is that like when a CB goes for the post route when he should stay in the outside zone covering the corner route?

[Superbuffundo]

Is that like when a CB goes for the post route when he should stay in the outside zone covering the corner route?

Yeah, and many other stupid mistakes like MLB covering the middle in Zone that deside to follow guys to the flats. ERRRR!

[alliance4g63]

Yeah, and many other stupid mistakes like MLB covering the middle in Zone that deside to follow guys to the flats. ERRRR!

Wow that puts alot into perspective. I never knew about the bug until just now. I guess that explains how slants and cross routes still get caught when I'm in 3-under or Cover 8.. A patch is definitely needed.

[nyknicks33]

Wow that puts alot into perspective. I never knew about the bug until just now. I guess that explains how slants and cross routes still get caught when I'm in 3-under or Cover 8.. A patch is definitely needed.

When a guy just busts free and no one is around him for no logical reason, that's usually the culprit.

I saw it happen in 2-man, where my strong safety just turned and ran straight across the field to a receiver on the other side of the formation running a shallow cross

[alliance4g63]

When a guy just busts free and no one is around him for no logical reason, that's usually the culprit.

I saw it happen in 2-man, where my strong safety just turned and ran straight across the field to a receiver on the other side of the formation running a shallow cross

Yep that is it but I never knew it was labeled the focus bug. I think manual coverage may cause this sometimes. Because it seems that when I'm manually running around covering people, that will cause the guy that is supposed to just stay in his zone or stay covering his man to do something crazy. It always seems that people that use a defensive lineman pre-snap or stay in their assigned zone when manually covering have better coverage from their A.I. defenders.

[tpaterniti]

The bug is not that they divert to cover other guys. That is what focus is supposed to do. The bug is that the computer randomly assigns your focus to different people throughout the game. Check your matchup screen throughout the course of the game and you will see that the focus is set on random people, sometimes legends, sometimes WR5 and HB2, generics, anything is possible. Against a team that runs 2 WRs sets it's not too bad because everyone is spread out. But when people run bunch and trips sets where WRs line up near each other it wreaks havoc on the already bad coverage. Focus is fine if you want to use it. The bug is that you have no choice but to have it randomly moved around on you throughout the game.

I just played 2K5 and there was a much harsher penalty to WRs catching balls that were rocketed in there. If you try to rocket a ball to a WR running an out in 2K5 it bounces off his hands. You have to use a medium throw which gives the CBs more time to recover. In 2K8 it's almost like there are 5 QB hardness of throw settings

D E E P L O B
Lob
Medium
Hard pass
Rocket (too hard, overthrows the WR)

whereas in 2K5 there was only soft, medium, hard. But yes people would run deep corner routes especially with the Cowboys and if the WRs got 12-15 yards down the field it was like the CBs just forgot about them and they would be wide open. In general 2K5 was a VERY buggy game.

[nyeph43]

The one thing that i notice is the punt return the ai will punt the ball tha same high punt while playing offline, never a different angle.

Look at the real nfl the giants looked unbeatable for a whlile then they seem very average of late, look at the jets great for a few games and horrible in most others, were the jets have farve who should always carry the leadership badge of honor but sometimes he plays like a 100% rookie, Leadership dosen't give a team an edge everygame but in some games.

Look at matt ryan he gives he's offensive team more leadership at times then some vet QB's, go figure on that, football in it's self has alot of ups & downs players will sometimes play at the same level and then there's those games were they just don't show up. Yes the game do have bugs that needs work but not everything is a glitch or a error, the gamers themself's needs too stop blaming everything on the game because they did'nt or thought they should'nt have lost a game or 3, you can't always win reguardless how well you play against an opp.

I have played online and the thing is what bugs the game has when i play has the same for my opp as well so if my team plays well or not is really not the point, the AI is always the main factor, their is times my team starts out great then i get mashed and lose so what it's not always the game it self. Some things about the game will prevent you from winning, like a blow coverage or bad timed passes but the ai itself is overridding some points of the game like a big 3rd down or blocked kick or punt because the same style of play dosen't always mean a win.

Bottom line is we all that play this game knows it has some flaws as mentioned in in most of these posts but if you still play the game then it is for one playable and two people who play must understand by now that you can't always blame others or the game everytime you lose, 2k knows the game wasn't up to par too begin with.

[nflhitman]

Here is how I see it after countless games played.

1. I have games where my team is super duper in every aspect.

2. I have games where my team plays like it got hit with a stupid stick at every position.

3. Leadership has everything to do with.

4. I had an Oregon Ducks team that I never lost with and deleted the team because I wanted more of a challenge. Every player on that team even the generics played lights out.

My thoughts on it.....

I still believe there is a number system that we can't see on this game. If you get a great team build your team will have a high team rating. Don't believe me? Next time you make a team go and look at its rating in all 8 aspects of your team in the match up screen against the computer. That Oregon Ducks team no matter who I played had 6 spots it dominated in and at time the other 2 spots were even. This is even with me having a Kicker on the team. I will edit my teams over and over until I get a great team build.

[Numbski]

Team makeup does matter. Having too many legends espically high tier on either side of the ball will not get you an explosive offense or defense. When you stack an offense or defense, your team will not perform at a high level. Is you team built too heavily on one side?

You need to have leadership. you will certainly have a hell of a lot of dropped balls, defenders making awkward moves in opposite direction to the ball carrier and so fourth if you do not have leadership.

Or you are probably in a rut. more than likely this is what it is. Or perhaps just being in a league...

I don't know that I agree with this. I think it's more that there is some "player chemistry" built into the game. Some players just play better paired with others. It's a real trick getting that balance. I run with a stacked defense, and depending on who I have out there, there are games where my opponent just isn't going to move the ball. Amid's played against one of those squads before. Even my offense was clicking, I distinctly recall having a conversation on here about the fact that my generic receivers caught everything I threw to them, meanwhile his stars couldn't buy a completion. Since then, my generic recievers have come back down to earth, and I haven't been able to replicate that team again.

So stacking one side of the ball or another won't necessarily screw your team up. You do have to watch what you're asking your players to accomplish. I can't reasonably expect my generic wideouts to go beat a gold CB in man coverage unless there's a natural pick in a crossing route, or a VERY hard cut. Expecting them to do that is suicide. I can however expect them to go out and execute a short passing game to perfection and force all of the DB's in close to where when I *do* finally air it out, there is a chance they're going to come open.

So far as dropped passes, man - it's just dumb luck and timing. There are stretches of games where I'll throw a pass and it will hit the receiver square in the mask, never making much of an effort to catch it. Then there's the game where a generic will make a circus catch for me. You just never ever know.

Just keep plugging away at it, you'll get it.

[alliance4g63]

Here is how I see it after countless games played.

1. I have games where my team is super duper in every aspect.

2. I have games where my team plays like it got hit with a stupid stick at every position.

3. Leadership has everything to do with.

4. I had an Oregon Ducks team that I never lost with and deleted the team because I wanted more of a challenge. Every player on that team even the generics played lights out.

My thoughts on it.....

I still believe there is a number system that we can't see on this game. If you get a great team build your team will have a high team rating. Don't believe me? Next time you make a team go and look at its rating in all 8 aspects of your team in the match up screen against the computer. That Oregon Ducks team no matter who I played had 6 spots it dominated in and at time the other 2 spots were even. This is even with me having a Kicker on the team. I will edit my teams over and over until I get a great team build.


And how is this exactly done? Do I have completely build a team from scratch everytime? I did notice that everytime you make changes to your generics(changing linemen from balanced to pass block etc) that you get different players everytime. So do I just have to do this over and over until I get the so called "super generics"?

[Valdarez]

If you ask me, what you are seeing is just plain old Momentum. You don't want to go up against big Mo. If the crowd is against you, or not for you (away / home), then be sure to focus on short plays until you get them back on your side, then go for the big ones. It's important to have consistent plays though, so you can turn the tide of the Momentum. I have been behind all game long with my team playing horribly (3 drops by my Silver TE), then come back in the 4th quarter when I consistently moved the ball for the win. I attribute it all to Momentum.

[Kdrontle]

If you ask me, what you are seeing is just plain old Momentum. You don't want to go up against big Mo. If the crowd is against you, or not for you (away / home), then be sure to focus on short plays until you get them back on your side, then go for the big ones. It's important to have consistent plays though, so you can turn the tide of the Momentum. I have been behind all game long with my team playing horribly (3 drops by my Silver TE), then come back in the 4th quarter when I consistently moved the ball for the win. I attribute it all to Momentum.

I agree with this. Negative plays just accumulate and snowball into something very ugly. On the other hand, if you can just plug away until you find some momentum you aren't out of the game. I like defensive teams because I feel I can best control momentum with defensive stops and defensive impact plays. I get more decisive wins and blowouts with defensive teams.

[badasp83]

Couple of things. Anymore I always check to see who the heck the CPU is assigning the defenders to.
Also I think that game momentum is a huge factor (too much) in this game.
I think it does build one way or another thru a season to.
It seems to me that anytime you edit a team it changes how they play together. Probably happens with any change in the team. :confused: