Big News Coming Today.....

[2K Admin Ron]

Be on the lookout. NHL 2K10 is finally here.

[sharks14]

Please be more than a cover boy! I would like to hear about gameplay improvements!

[stoney0ne]

Please be more than a cover boy! I would like to hear about gameplay improvements!

now come on... you know the first thing any sports title discusses each year is the cover boy


its like reading a book... you have to start on the first page.


Ron's got a whole PR thing lined up, it has to start somewhere...


i anxiously await tomorrows announcement

[sharks14]

I do not really care about the cover boy. I guess I will have to wait until next week for real news.

[stoney0ne]

who knows what all will be announced...




im with you.. they could put fox's glowing puck on the cover for all i care... but im not going to flip out becasue they announce something like that before a big scf game 7...

[stoney0ne]

Please be more than a cover boy! I would like to hear about gameplay improvements!

here is rons response to you from his twitter page... god you have to love the internet


@gosharks14 It's early for huge features to be released (look NBA). We gotta start somewhere bud! The next week is going to be cool for NHL

@gosharks14 Not tomorrow. But patience grasshopper, it's not far away. And if you're in SJ, maybe you can come play it with me down the road



gosharks, if you are in san jose... you gotta take up that offer... he is serious, they are doing it for the bigs 2

[sharks14]

I was so into the Stanley Cup this year even though the Sharks did not make it. I mainly like it because it is a rematch of last year and I think Pittsburgh can win. I am so mad that I am going to have to miss Game 7 after watching all 6 games so far. I will have to tape it and not watch it live. If Pittsburgh wins the Cup then whatever news 2K releases this week will be overshadowed.

[sharks14]

here is rons response to you from his twitter page... god you have to love the internet

Yup. I spend almost all of my spare time on the internet because NHL 2K9 and NHL 09 are both unplayable. I am currently playing NBA 2K9 even though I am not into basketball nearly as much.

[stoney0ne]

im kinda actually curious...



Kobe Bryant on the cover of one game... I think there is a star or two in the nhl finals right now... can they pull a big name here?


i mean we all know rick Nash set the bar for cover boys

[sharks14]

My guess is Malkin even though he is not playing up to his level. If it is a Detroit guy, then maybe Zetterberg.

[stoney0ne]

Nik Lidstrom desearves it... but doesnt have the "wow" factor

[sharks14]

How about Guerin?

[stoney0ne]

my guess is after a "lesser known" guy.. they follow it up with a very recognizable guy



now what hockey player is main stream i dont know

[sharks14]

I figured it out. The news will be about the motion caupture shoot in Las Vegas.

[sharks14]

my guess is after a "lesser known" guy.. they follow it up with a very recognizable guy



now what hockey player is main stream i dont know

EA went with a young guy. Maybe 2K picked a young guy also. Franzen would not be a bad choice.

[stoney0ne]

the NHL awards show is coming up in vegas also...... it doesnt take matlock


http://timstvshowcase.com/matlock2.jpg





how long a drive is vegas to san jose?

[sharks14]

I think it takes about 4-5 hours to get to Vegas from San Jose. That is if you go the speed limit! :)

[Scottyk]

Zach Parise.

[VeNOM2099]

it better not be Crosby or I think I'm gonna retch...

[cheappie12]

Olaf kolzig

[stoney0ne]

a big picture of gary bettman would be awesome :rolleyes:

[RoadDoggFL]

I hope there's something else released beyond the cover athlete. Not that I'd be upset, but just naming who'll be on the cover isn't big news, IMO. There's gotta be something else. I'm guessing he was just setting the bar low to increase the excitement generated.

[Hank19]

a big picture of gary bettman would be awesome :rolleyes:

With a picture of Hamilton in the background? ;)

[Stone Cold12]

Nice,I will wait for news .

[Bruins fan 4 life]

Any information revealed will hopefully help to quell the conspiracy theorists regarding the rumors that their will be no 2k10, or that it is only going to be released for the PS3. Obviously with the release of a little info that will stifle the first concern, and then I hope they at least announce the platforms it will be available for.

In short any info, even just the cover athlete, is great!

[2K Admin Ron]

Come on guys, I expect you Internet fiends to come up with a list of all of our features by now. Why are you ignoring obvious hints everywhere? You only have a few more hours to get this figured out before it drops to everyone.

[2K Admin Ron]

On Twitter (http://www.twitter.com/Ronnie2K):
Ronnie2K: Raising the stakes! The person who figures out the news by noon PST will get a sweet NHL 2K9 shirt sent to them. Hints are up, tweet me

Who's going to figure it out? Please explain how you did it if you think you have figured it out.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

Ronnie, you sure do know how to build anticipation, I'll give you that.

I'm going to put on my Sherlock Holmes hat now and start doing some deducing....

Can't wait for the info!

[2K Admin Ron]

Ronnie, you sure do know how to build anticipation, I'll give you that.

I'm going to put on my Sherlock Holmes hat now and start doing some deducing....

Can't wait for the info!

It was what I was put on this earth to do, just wait until I start playing builds of the game.

[RoadDoggFL]

Guess that means Crosby's on the cover.

[vilaysouk]

2008-2009 mvp Alexei Kovalev will be on the cover this years :O

[Stone Cold12]

Ovechkin cover!

[SupaStar911]

my guess is that the news is a screenshot accompanied with a teaser video. The coverboy this year is either Franzen or Fleury.

[sharks14]

As much as I think Fleury deserves to be on the cover, I doubt they would pick a goalie.

[SupaStar911]

they picked turco in 2k6. I actually want Iginla to be the coverboy

[CherryBomb]

ron the only news i would like to know is if we are going to get a pc version so could you please ask them so were not in limbo anymore

[Hank19]

Drop the news already Ronnie!

P.S. Ozzie's better. ;)

[bflosabre91]

Put vanek on the cover. the sabres never get any love. where is that damn news!?!

[Mr. T]

Mr.T thinks only people who can beat him in a street fight deserve the cover. T choses Zdeno Chara

[2K Admin Ron]

You guys still haven't come up with what it is and why. That t-shirt is looking safe!

But once it drops, I will tweet. First three guys re-tweet, and you'll get a shirt!

[stoney0ne]

My guess would be that fans will have a chance to be mocapped into the game in vegas

[b-Dub]

Yes!! Mo-cap a fan getting checked into the boards by a real NHLer. And make sure to get the expression on his face. :D :D

[Mr. T]

we get to vote on our cover athlete at las vegas telecats or draft telecast?

[KrossRoad]

we get to vote on our cover athlete at las vegas telecats or draft telecast?

No vote like NBA.. I'm looking forward to it being announced!

[CherryBomb]

hmmmmm what you going to have something like be a pro mode or a new online mode

[Mr. T]

It will be released Sept 16th, with a $10 price drop. $49.99

[SupaStar911]

When is the news coming?

[VeNOM2099]

Holy crap, Ronnie!! Even the Bush administration left more clues around and in plain site during the 9/11 fiasco... What news? What clues??? WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERE!!!?? Here, let me invite you to a treasure hunt!

You: "Cool! Where?"
Me: "Huh?"
You: "Yeah, where do we begin?"
Me: "Begin what?..."
You: "The... The treasure hunt? You said we were going on a treasure hunt!"
Me: "I did?"
You: "YES!! You did!!"
Me: "Did what?..."
You: "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrgh!!!" **Runs away screaming**
Me: "Ok, you ready for that treasure hunt, Ronnie!... Ronnie?... Where'd you go?..."

Even the 2K Sports twitter has no clue what you're talking about! Just out with it! Who cares about an NHL 2K9 T-shirt (maybe if it was a 2K10 shirt or something). Why you gotz a be like dat, baby!?!...

[stoney0ne]

In celebration of the announcement, Ovechkin will be participating in a first-time ever public outdoor hockey motion capture session Tuesday night at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas from 8:30-11:30pm PT. Joining Ovechkin on the ice will be Vancouver Canucks center and 2009 Selke Trophy finalist, Ryan Kesler(notes), along with play-by-play commentator for the San Jose Sharks, Randy Hahn, who will act as host MC. The event is free and open to the public to watch, as synthetic ice will be laid down to create a special hockey rink and 2K Sports' game producers will put Ovechkin through a number of dynamic drills to capture his signature style data for NHL 2K10.

[sharks14]

Not big news at all.

[sharks14]

I knew it. They are going to release the cover athlete and expect that to hold us over until near release. Then two days before release they will reveal whatever improvements they made and give a small demo. Typical 2K.

[SupaStar911]

wow, Oh My God, i waited 8 hours to hear this? Is this 2k's new marketing strategy? because its terrible. The fact that they are still using synthetic ice for mocap is garbage. Did not learn from last years crappy skating system.

[stoney0ne]

now hold on



we got....


one of the best players in the game on the cover.....

a release date

an apparent price drop

and a open to the public mo cap session.

and some off the record comments on the games new AI from someone "who is in the know"




considering the fact that this is the first official word of the game breathed... come on

[sharks14]

wow, Oh My God, i waited 8 hours to hear this? Is this 2k's new marketing strategy? because its terrible. The fact that they are still using synthetic ice for mocap is garbage. Did not learn from last years crappy skating system.

Exactly. They hype up the game only to reveal a cover athlete. I was also very disappointed to find that they still will not do the motion capture on real ice. When will they learn that skating looks better when it is captured on real ice? There are so many ice rinks in San Jose. They could easily motion capture here.

[sharks14]

now hold on



we got....


one of the best players in the game on the cover.....

a release date

an apparent price drop

and a open to the public mo cap session.

and some off the record comments on the games new AI from someone "who is in the know"

considering the fact that this is the first official word of the game breathed... come on

Still, Ronnie built the news up to be a lot bigger. I will never trust him again! JK. :)

[stoney0ne]

Exactly. They hype up the game only to reveal a cover athlete. I was also very disappointed to find that they still will not do the motion capture on real ice. When will they learn that skating looks better when it is captured on real ice? There are so many ice rinks in San Jose. They could easily motion capture here.


i do completley agree with this



nash said last year he had trouble getting a good bite into the ice for stopping... and the puck felt different on the plastic

[SupaStar911]

of course. anyway, what is the comments on new ai, i didn't hear anything about that

[sharks14]

So, WWTC implied that the AI is better and sliders are better as well. Skating animations, however, will not be better, I suppose. Why improve everything else if the skating, which is the most important part, will look terrible?

[sharks14]

of course. anyway, what is the comments on new ai, i didn't hear anything about that

Check 2khockey.net.

[sharks14]

i'm also quite ticked off that they made us wait this long for useless info. what site was the developer posting on. id like to read his comments

Go to 2khockey.net. I think We Want the Cup posted his comments in the "Will NHL 2K10 be shown at E3" thread.

[CherryBomb]

hockey pucks to the face ?

[Bruins fan 4 life]

In celebration of the announcement, Ovechkin will be participating in a first-time ever public outdoor hockey motion capture session Tuesday night at Caesars Palace in Las Vegas from 8:30-11:30pm PT. Joining Ovechkin on the ice will be Vancouver Canucks center and 2009 Selke Trophy finalist, Ryan Kesler(notes), along with play-by-play commentator for the San Jose Sharks, Randy Hahn, who will act as host MC. The event is free and open to the public to watch, as synthetic ice will be laid down to create a special hockey rink and 2K Sports' game producers will put Ovechkin through a number of dynamic drills to capture his signature style data for NHL 2K10.

I now I am in the minority here but, with all things being equal, I do think this is big news.

I understand the consternation regarding the synthetic ice mocap (its like comparing rollerblading to ice skating, similar in nature but nowhere near the same mechanics) but, and maybe this my naiveté showing here, I got to think Ovie wouldn't agree to this unless he was sure it would be done correctly. He knows the variables with synthetic ice and if he wasn't sure he could pull off a realistic representation I would hope he wouldn't even try, especially in a public venue.

[2K Admin Ron]

Sorry guys, I don't know if you saw my twitter message but I had a family emergency and had to leave the office at 5 PST right before the news dropped. I am about to twitter the news, the first three to retweet get a t-shirt so be on the lookout.

[sharks14]

The t-shirts seem to be the best part of the news reveal.

[Savvy91]

im still waiting on the tweet haha.
ovechkin was a good choice though!

[Savvy91]

nvm, i got it done! hahaha im pretty sure i just won a t-shirt.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

Sorry guys, I don't know if you saw my twitter message but I had a family emergency and had to leave the office at 5 PST right before the news dropped. I am about to twitter the news, the first three to retweet get a t-shirt so be on the lookout.

Hope everything is fine with your family Ronnie and thanks for the game updates.

Looking forward to more info coming soon...

[bflosabre91]

yeah ovechkin was a good choice, cover looks amazing

[Savvy91]

whats retweeting? haha and i havent seen the cover yet!

[bflosabre91]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy

screen shot of cover is there.

[2K Admin Ron]

Awesome cover. That, along with the price drop, along with some upcoming news about our Vegas stuff next week, is really all a bundle of news that is saying NHL 2K10 is going to be the biggest and brightest yet!

[sharks14]

But we haven't even heard anything about the actual game itself. Is the price drop any indication that the game will not be great?

[Savvy91]

that cover is wiiiiicked.
i hope i tweeted right? ha

[2K Admin Ron]

Absolutely not sharks. It's more to help our overall messaging that we're bringing the fun back (with Wii etc.) and really want to help our fans during these rough economic times.

[Grandmaster D]

Cover looks great and the info bits are quiet promissing. Is the price drop (10$, correct?) limited to North America? Also great that a PC version is finally there.


[...] bringing the fun back [...].
:rolleyes:
I really can't stand that line anymore...

[VeNOM2099]

But we haven't even heard anything about the actual game itself. Is the price drop any indication that the game will not be great?

Holy S***, dude!! NHL 2K5 was 19$ when it came out, and many argue it was the best NHL 2K game ever. The price drop can be seen as two things (IMO):

#1 - It's designed as a move to get the game into the hands of people that might otherwise NOT have purchased the game at all and instead just gotten EA's game.

#2 - It's a way for the dev to redeem itself to its fans who paid full price for NHL 2K9 when it was an unfinished product.

Those are my two thoughts, though they may not be even remotely close to the truth. In essence, Price doesn't equal Quality.

[Savvy91]

now i think i didnt win a shirt! :(

[vanhalendlrband]

Price drop? Tell me this isn't what 2K did in 2K5 to say its ok for those glitches to be in the game. Please be fixed.

[2K Admin Ron]

I think it's to everywhere Grandmaster, but let me verify.

Savvy, I have only got a Retweet from GoSabres91, just FYI.

[2K Admin Ron]

Holy S***, dude!! NHL 2K5 was 19$ when it came out, and many argue it was the best NHL 2K game ever. The price drop can be seen as two things (IMO):

#1 - It's designed as a move to get the game into the hands of people that might otherwise NOT have purchased the game at all and instead just gotten EA's game.

#2 - It's a way for the dev to redeem itself to its fans who paid full price for NHL 2K9 when it was an unfinished product.

Those are my two thoughts, though they may not be even remotely close to the truth. In essence, Price doesn't equal Quality.

Only your last sentence is really relevant.

[sharks14]

Let's hear gameplay news to prove that the game will be a good one.

[sharks14]

Only authenticity needs to be in hockey games. There is no need to bring fun. Hockey is already fun. They brought the fun back for NHL 2K9, and the game ended up being anything but fun.

[Savvy91]

idk how to retweet!

[Savvy91]

ok nvm i got it hahaha. google is useful. and im sure the game will be totally revamped....well hopefully. living rosters would be an excellent addition.

[sharks14]

Cover looks great and the info bits are quiet promissing. Is the price drop (10$, correct?) limited to North America? Also great that a PC version is finally there.



:rolleyes:
I really can't stand that line anymore...

I know. I hate hearing that their goal has been to bring the fun back to hockey video games. The game should be fun in itself. I hope this year that fun means simulation.

[b-Dub]

sharks, be patient. There's still months before release. There will be plenty of time for more info, screens, videos, and what not. If you divulge all the info at once, too soon, then most people will have forgotten about it when the release date comes around.

[vanhalendlrband]

Yea hopefully its just a really big game and they want people to play it.

2K5 was almost perfect, except for the huge franchise glitch, and the same goals scored now as then.

I remember being totally floored about glitches in 2K5. And almost every year. Still buy it hoping.

[sharks14]

sharks, be patient. There's still months before release. There will be plenty of time for more info, screens, videos, and what not. If you divulge all the info at once, too soon, then most people will have forgotten about it when the release date comes around.

If the info is good and promising then it would be hard to forget before the release date.

[Hank19]

Sorry guys, I don't know if you saw my twitter message but I had a family emergency and had to leave the office at 5 PST right before the news dropped. I am about to twitter the news, the first three to retweet get a t-shirt so be on the lookout.

Hope everything's okay.

Enjoy the game tonight.
The wife's already got the wings, shrimp and mozzarella sticks ready for me when I get home - along with a fridge full of cold beer. God, I love her!

The only thing that would make this night better is if the Wings win and Ronnie gives us more details about 2K10. ;)

Yea hopefully its just a really big game and they want people to play it.

2K5 was almost perfect, except for the huge franchise glitch, and the same goals scored now as then.

I remember being totally floored about glitches in 2K5. And almost every year. Still buy it hoping.

I always felt 2K3 had the best offensive AI out of the bunch. The CPU knew how to score on odd-man opportunities or mistakes in your zone.
I hope 2K10 can capture that again.

[flamesfan597]

Look at the info ea has released. Come on 2k.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

Look at the info ea has released. Come on 2k.

Old and tired argument.

2k will release information on its own timeframe, for better or for worse. The object is not to see who can release the most tantalizing information first, but who can release a better final product.

EA ~ 2k as apples ~ oranges

[b-Dub]

Old and tired argument.

2k will release information on its own timeframe, for better or for worse. The object is not to see who can release the most tantalizing information first, but who can release a better final product.

EA ~ 2k as apples ~ oranges

Very true.

And let me share something with you guys who want info now because EA has already given a good bit of info. But first, a disclaimer: I have no clue what 2K's marketing strategy will be this year, and what I'm going to say relates to how their marketing went last year. This year might be a bit different.

Last year, when the hype for the NBA games was building up, EA was releasing tons of info months in advance. People were excited and talking about that game. These forums were a buzz with members asking 2K for info, and getting upset cause so little was actually out there. Then, after EA had given all the info they had about their game, 2K started their hype machine up. Over the course of a few weeks, and leading up to release, 2K was giving info, releasing screens, releasing teasers, and gameplay videos. Suddenly, everyone was excited and talking about 2K's game, since it was the "fresh" game. It was the only game with info coming out so close to release, so it was the game that was fresh in people's minds. All the early hype that EA had built up by releasing all their info early was gone.

Now, I'm not saying that will happen again this year, or that 2K will release info following the same pattern as last year. But I would expect 2K to drop their info and what not after EA does (especially since it seems EA is gonna release a lot of info early again this year), so that their game will be fresher in people's minds as the release date nears. I only hope that 2K releases more info each time. More screens, more videos, more features each time that they do treat us to some info. That's what I want to see. They can wait until it's closer to the release date before flooding us with info, but I want an actual flood this time, not a trickle.

[2K Admin Ron]

Couldn't have said that better myself.

[sharks14]

How long is this cover boy news supposed to hold us over for?

[Bruins fan 4 life]

How long is this cover boy news supposed to hold us over for?

I'm pretty sure sure b-dub and ronnie just gave you your answer.

I'm as anxious as you are but we do have three months until the drop.

[chaotictaboo]

Perhaps go out and enjoy the sunshine and summer weather Shark. Maybe find something better to do than just sitting around, waiting for 2K to make some news.

[Stone Cold12]

And when there will be news?

[86gamer]

I hear your argument and it's valid, 2k doesn't have to imitate how EA put's there info out to the gamers, but gamers do want to feel closer to the franchise. I live in Chester,Pa. ( proud home of Jamir Nelson ) and I have been gaming since ATARI and to see him on 2k9 was a great feeling for all gamers in Chester , but we don't have connection with 2k sports be it tournaments,blogs,facebook etc. For people who support the franchise and want to see it sucessful it would be good promotion to have more interaction with gamers on this side of town......

[vanhalendlrband]

Yea i'm just looking forward to it. And it looks like they're preparing for a full out battle with EA. That live mo-cap event at Ceaser's Palace looks so awesome. Anyone who goes to that will probably just buy 2K10.

I'm gettin the feeling now that they might be trying to get EA to think they're doing the same thing as last year, when really they got a game that will make us all really happy for the first time in many versions of NHL 2K.

[kcxiv]

You would think cover guy and a 10 dollar price drop would be pretty good new for the first news about 2K10 .

I know, i know, but more you give the more they want. It will always be like that.

[Mr. T]

If Mr.T smells a steak cooking, and then the waiter tells T he cant eat it for three months, T gets angry. Mr.T's not getting his copy delivered until Septemeber, and all the info in the world wont change it. Unless Murdock helps T break into the 2K studio's(wink wink)

http://www.oldbug.com/061604%20147.jpg

[sharks14]

So much for big news.

[stoney0ne]

tuff guy to please here.. im sure there will be more as launch approaches

im sorry it wasn't enough for you at this time,, cmon, mr T seems happy

[kcxiv]

So much for big news.

:( damn, what is considered big news then? price cut and it being on PC doesnt qualify? Heck, i think the price cut alone does. Especially, this early.

Damn, you wont ever please some people. Not even please, just be somewhat happy about it. lol

[sharks14]

I could care less about the cover boy, a PC version, an open motion capture event, and a price drop. If the game is good I would still pay the $60 anyway. Nothing on gameplay so far though. That is when there will be big news. When gameplay info is released is when the real news comes.

[RoadDoggFL]

:( damn, what is considered big news then? price cut and it being on PC doesnt qualify? Heck, i think the price cut alone does. Especially, this early.

Damn, you wont ever please some people. Not even please, just be somewhat happy about it. lol

The existence of a PC version seems to be questionable, btw.

I could care less about the cover boy, a PC version, an open motion capture event, and a price drop. If the game is good I would still pay the $60 anyway. Nothing on gameplay so far though. That is when there will be big news. When gameplay info is released is when the real news comes.

We've gotten gameplay info. Cups has been giving us tidbits for weeks. Stop crying, and stop acting like you haven't heard anything about the game. Hell, send Ron a message and play the game if you're up by San Jose. He offered.

[kcxiv]

The existence of a PC version seems to be questionable, btw.



We've gotten gameplay info. Cups has been giving us tidbits for weeks. Stop crying, and stop acting like you haven't heard anything about the game. Hell, send Ron a message and play the game if you're up by San Jose. He offered.
Even so, 10 dollar price to to help with sales is great. That imo is pretty darn big news. lol

[Stone Cold12]

Have absolutely confused me.

[vanhalendlrband]

For this time of year, it's only 3 months before release date y'know? Its not surprising people are wondering whats happening.

I personally don't mind waiting. I just hope they really iron out the problems this year, ditch any sort of arcade play and a renewed simulation effort and i'll be happy.

[stoney0ne]

i think the price drop is a pretty big deal

[vanhalendlrband]

Yea 10 bucks off is good news indeed. I think the only worry was that it turn out like 2K5 and 6, although the last gen 2K7 turned out really well.

Just worried about the "what if its 2k5" and thats what a lot of people are worried about. The only other thing to say is they might have a game so good they're willing to knock off a few bucks so people will buy it, and with ovechkin on the cover thats pretty huge.

[sharks14]

i think the price drop is a pretty big deal

Yeah. I suppose you could apply those $10 saved toward a new controller after it breaks because you threw it at the TV due to a puck going right through a player who is down on the ice to block the shot.

[stoney0ne]

To me its hard to believe 2k10 is going to be more glitchy and bug prone than 2k9. I think we have all come to level of acceptance to a certain amount of buggs. I'd be surprissed if this new game is any worse than the past 5



I think the price drop is a good way to give more people a reason to give the game a try

[Leafs_Nation1]

i want to know one thing only, is 2k10 for WII going to have Wi-Fi cuz if it doesnt -_-!

[Bruins fan 4 life]

I think the price drop is a good way to give more people a reason to give the game a try

it certainly couldn't hurt... the old adage of attracting more flies with honey definitely applies

With tv ratings on the rise (slowly but surely), the casual fan coming back, and having a recognizable (to the casual fan) superstar like Ovie as the face of your franchise will only help to ensure that sales will undoubtedly increase exponentially over last year's.

[islesfan12]

I couldn't care any less about a price drop, to be honest. I would pay 5 bucks more if the game was actually good this year.

[sharks14]

I couldn't care any less about a price drop, to be honest. I would pay 5 bucks more if the game was actually good this year.

Me too.....

[vanhalendlrband]

Me three. If the amount of glitches is anywhere near the last 5 it will be unacceptable.

There are certain amounts of glitches in games that are acceptable, 2K's, even going to back to the original 2K2, have been way too high every single year.

[sharks14]

Not liking the sound of this "party" stuff.

[RoadDoggFL]

We know already.

[sharks14]

The tagline should be something like, "NHL 2K10 is a simulation hockey video game. All hardcore players are invited. Arcade players should play NHL 10."

[RoadDoggFL]

The tagline should be something like, "NHL 2K10 is a simulation hockey video game. All hardcore players are invited. Arcade players should play NHL 10."

That's a great way to sell 1,000 copies and make sure there's no 2K11.

[sharks14]

There are most likely more hardcore players than arcade players.

[RoadDoggFL]

There are most likely more hardcore players than arcade players.

Really shows how little you know.

There aren't most likely more hardcore players. I guarantee you 100% without any doubt in my mind and no chance at all in this world that I'm wrong, that most gamers aren't "harcore" gamers, hockey gamers included.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

There aren't most likely more hardcore players.

Absolutely true statement. The casual gamer makes up a vast majority of the video game consumer population. Sometimes we, myself included, become a little myopic in our views regarding what should or shouldn't be included in a game, how it should be marketed, etc... 2K is in the business of turning a profit, therefore the desires of the many (casual/ arcadey type of player) will always out weigh the desires of the few (hardcore gamers).

This is not too say that two cannot coexist. IMO 2k does the best job of any hockey game in accomplishing this. The amount of variables 2k gives you to play with (i.e. sliders) goes a long way towards satisfying the hardcore hockey gamer.

By selling a product that the casual gamer will purchase, they can then turn around and invest those proceeds into developing more sim like features for future incarnations of the game. In short, the profits gained by selling to the many help to satisfy the desires of the few.

[SUGATA]

2K need to do minimum 2 league (settings presets) in a game like it is in Gran Turismo 5:
-Hardcore sim settings (sliders, controls) - for Hardcore sim players;
-More arcade gameplay settings and controls - for casuals and for more selling rating;
-several styles between these two - for any gamers.
But the CORE of the game must to be a simulation!

[CrimsonKing07]

Just put the SIM lobby back in the game

[b-Dub]

Absolutely true statement. The casual gamer makes up a vast majority of the video game consumer population. Sometimes we, myself included, become a little myopic in our views regarding what should or shouldn't be included in a game, how it should be marketed, etc... 2K is in the business of turning a profit, therefore the desires of the many (casual/ arcadey type of player) will always out weigh the desires of the few (hardcore gamers).

This is not too say that two cannot coexist. IMO 2k does the best job of any hockey game in accomplishing this. The amount of variables 2k gives you to play with (i.e. sliders) goes a long way towards satisfying the hardcore hockey gamer.

By selling a product that the casual gamer will purchase, they can then turn around and invest those proceeds into developing more sim like features for future incarnations of the game. In short, the profits gained by selling to the many help to satisfy the desires of the few.

Such a wonderful post. :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[bflosabre91]

the sim lobby was awesome, but it was too difficult to find players in there. idk what the solution would be for that...

[SUGATA]

Just put the SIM lobby back in the game

It was great in NHL 2K8!
I hate NHL 2K9 ranking match, because all they are going under the default sliders (settings) , which are :
1)arcade
2)cheat (easy goals from some spots , for ex. from blue lines and others, ...so no need to develop any strategy, or combo play, i.e. NO MIND GAME!)
3)fantastic (because NHL rules are NOT NHL in this mode-settings: bode check rules and no penalties for them; body check on goalie are for free, and others).
...Tell me please, how SIM hockey fans must to playing in this type of hockey?!!

[CrimsonKing07]

Absolutely true statement. The casual gamer makes up a vast majority of the video game consumer population. Sometimes we, myself included, become a little myopic in our views regarding what should or shouldn't be included in a game, how it should be marketed, etc... 2K is in the business of turning a profit, therefore the desires of the many (casual/ arcadey type of player) will always out weigh the desires of the few (hardcore gamers).

This is not too say that two cannot coexist. IMO 2k does the best job of any hockey game in accomplishing this. The amount of variables 2k gives you to play with (i.e. sliders) goes a long way towards satisfying the hardcore hockey gamer.

By selling a product that the casual gamer will purchase, they can then turn around and invest those proceeds into developing more sim like features for future incarnations of the game. In short, the profits gained by selling to the many help to satisfy the desires of the few.

100% right on.

Does the league feature, as it currently exist, meet the "Hardcore Hockey Gamer" needs? I know the issues with free agency and such, but with the ability to change gameplay settings, have you been able to create a SIM like enviroment for your leagues?

I, personally, like to play both. The hardcore gammer shouldn't care about the leaderboards, thus, not care about the settings created for the causual gammer. Creating, maintaining and winning a league with people who share a common love for the game of hockey is much more enjoyable for the SIM hardcore.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

Does the league feature, as it currently exist, meet the "Hardcore Hockey Gamer" needs? I know the issues with free agency and such, but with the ability to change gameplay settings, have you been able to create a SIM like enviroment for your leagues?

As far as online leagues are concerned (of which I really am not that well versed) I think it is all up to the players to police themselves. No matter how much you tweak the game sliders to make it a sim style game, the human player will always have the ability to "cheese it". In my offline franchise I play what I consider to be a sim style game. But even with the sliders setup exactly the way I like them I can still score the weak wrister from just inside the blue-line, I can still waggle my stick on every face-off, etc.... I have to stop myself from doing those things. I don't think any amount of sliders will ever be able to prevent players from exploiting glitches and/or cheese moves.

[RoadDoggFL]

Not necessarily. Games can one day reach a point where the best strategy in the game is the best one in real life. We're just not there yet.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

Not necessarily. Games can one day reach a point where the best strategy in the game is the best one in real life. We're just not there yet.

True. I hope it's closer than we think. The Euphoria Engine is a good example of how real sports video gaming can be. Can you imagine how awesome hockey would be with that power behind it?

Of course I have been hearing about Backbreaker Football for sometime now and still no word on a release...

[CrimsonKing07]

As far as online leagues are concerned (of which I really am not that well versed) I think it is all up to the players to police themselves. No matter how much you tweak the game sliders to make it a sim style game, the human player will always have the ability to "cheese it". In my offline franchise I play what I consider to be a sim style game. But even with the sliders setup exactly the way I like them I can still score the weak wrister from just inside the blue-line, I can still waggle my stick on every face-off, etc.... I have to stop myself from doing those things. I don't think any amount of sliders will ever be able to prevent players from exploiting glitches and/or cheese moves.

This is true and I'd hope that if you have fans of playing SIM in your league, those goals would be kept to a minimum. SIM players should not desire to take advantage of those flaws or it would undermind the integrity of the league. I've played in leagues where anything goes. SIM is much more exciting.

My game suits playing SIM. I don't dive, score the "Hail Mary" wrist shot or rely on one way to score. Rather, I have a clear strategy on offense and defense. It's really quite simple, but 96% of the people I play have no idea how to beat it.

My defensive stategy is the neutral zone trap. The AI gets bashed on this board all the time, however, I think 2k has done an excellent job at giving the AI a good hockey IQ. My AI pressures the puck carrier and all I have to do is anticipate where the pass is going. 99% of the time, I stop the puck at the blueline.

My offensive strategy involves cycling the puck. This causes havoc in my opponents defensive zone. Most players chase the puck around causing an open far wing or open shot from the point. Some stay in front of the net allowing a screen for onetimers.

Now, if you have a good hockey IQ, you should be able to neutralize this, however, it's tough for people to change habbit.

Two very basic hockey strategies that work.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

My defensive stategy is the neutral zone trap. The AI gets bashed on this board all the time, however, I think 2k has done an excellent job at giving the AI a good hockey IQ. My AI pressures the puck carrier and all I have to do is anticipate where the pass is going. 99% of the time, I stop the puck at the blueline.

I agree. By allowing the offense to gain the blue line unchallenged, and not forcing the puck-carrier along the boards, it often leads to an easy offensive zone setup for the opposition. The trap goes along way to neutralize that threat. What I find myself doing sometimes when the puck crosses center-ice, to further pressure the puck-carrier, is call up the "on-the-fly coaching menu" and draw an extra defender to the puck. This can become a little dicey at times as I am obviously leaving an open area of the ice for the opposition to attack.

I also play a 2-1-2 fore-check sometimes and this can really lead to some precarious situations (i.e. breakaways) so neutral zone really becomes key at that point.

[CrimsonKing07]

The 2-1-2 leads to many turn overs too. Scoring in transition is high percentage in this game. You'd be surprised as to how different the Goalie reacts to shots from a turn over rather than a straight forward offensive attack. The defense reacts differently too. They scramble around and are often out of postition.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

The 2-1-2 leads to many turn overs too. Scoring in transition is high percentage in this game.
To say the least! This goes back to your original point regarding neutral zone play. If you can neutralize the transition game in the neutral zone you've done wonders to cut down on the opposition's scoring threats. 2-1-2 definitely leads to more breakaway chances and/or a freer time skating through the neutral zone, but in this game I find my defenders vacating the attack zone way too soon, especially when the forwards are battling in the corner. If I'm lucky enough to come out of the board play with the puck and look to cycle back to the point, nobody is home. The 2-1-2 helps to keep my defense-men at home a little longer.

You'd be surprised as to how different the Goalie reacts to shots from a turn over rather than a straight forward offensive attack. The defense reacts differently too. They scramble around and are often out of postition.

I haven't really noticed a difference in goalie play, but the defense is often out of position immediately following a turnover. It's like there is a magnet pulling them to the puck carrier.

[Flexxer27]

The last five or more posts have been the best I've read in a very long time long time.

If I understand how you all ended up playing one other was through the 5 minute period online
2k challenge. I can not stress how wrong I think that set up is but it serves its purpose.
What I'm talking about is simply extending the periods to 8 minutes with stop time and that means
time to take a sip of beer or even fart for that matter before the next puck drops.

Reading your post shows me you see what I see this game can do and soon will do better and I for
one can't wait for 2K10. Try playing a friend 8 minute periods with stop time (don't screw with it) and you'll
begin to find a whole different even better game.

Anyways my two cents worth.

[sharks14]

We Want The Cup protected his Twitter updates and rejected my request to follow him. Whatever.

[RoadDoggFL]

We Want The Cup protected his Twitter updates and rejected my request to follow him. Whatever.

Surprise of the century.

[stoney0ne]

there is more information on twitter about Iran's civil unrest than there is this friggin game

:D


i know its says I'm moderator but i couldn't help myself from making the easy, timely, layup joke

[Bruins fan 4 life]

The last five or more posts have been the best I've read in a very long time long time.

If I understand how you all ended up playing one other was through the 5 minute period online
2k challenge. I can not stress how wrong I think that set up is but it serves its purpose.
What I'm talking about is simply extending the periods to 8 minutes with stop time and that means
time to take a sip of beer or even fart for that matter before the next puck drops.

Reading your post shows me you see what I see this game can do and soon will do better and I for
one can't wait for 2K10. Try playing a friend 8 minute periods with stop time (don't screw with it) and you'll
begin to find a whole different even better game.

Anyways my two cents worth.

This exactly how I play my offline franchises. Well, i shouldn't say exactly, sometimes I drop down to 7 minute periods just to keep stats from getting out of whack too much. I play with sim sliders that produce close to a realistic game experience for me.

As far as no stoppage, I couldn't agree more. Sipping a Molson while watching the guys come over the boards or a replay of nasty hit is enjoyable for me. I even enjoy Schrader's comments between periods. They are surprisingly on target with what is happening in the game. Yes they do become a bit repetitive but not so much that I find it a distraction.

Playing 2k hockey is a break in my day and I want to enjoy it, not race through it. With summer here and no more real games to watch on Center Ice and with only so many "classic series" to watch on NHL network, this fills the void nicely.

[Flexxer27]

Exactly!
A friend asked me last weekend "How do you handle your Saturday Nights with out Hockey?"
I replied "I play NHL2K9".

[sharks14]

Nothing really about NHL in the latest Tuesday Announcement. Sigh.

[shonuff32612]

When my buds and I play Team Up vs the cpu we have a "Don't mash through the cut scenes!!!" rule so we can get new beers, hit the can or fill up a pitcher (Ya, beer on tap here!). If you happen to be the guy that mashes we just torment him the rest of the night.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

When my buds and I play Team Up vs the cpu we have a "Don't mash through the cut scenes!!!" rule so we can get new beers, hit the can or fill up a pitcher (Ya, beer on tap here!). If you happen to be the guy that mashes we just torment him the rest of the night.

The intros, the cut scenes, and the between period rundowns are all stellar aspects of the 2k product. For as much as a video game can, it really gives one the atmosphere of a real NHL game. Those items are as much a part of a sim quality game as anything else.

[Flexxer27]

The intros, the cut scenes, and the between period rundowns are all stellar aspects of the 2k product. For as much as a video game can, it really gives one the atmosphere of a real NHL game. Those items are as much a part of a sim quality game as anything else.

This is exactly what I'm talking about

Ever notice the better the goal the more replays you see and sometimes the camera angle
is just so perfect..... if not for that certain angle I would have never seen the tip in.

It's this kind of thing that make's 2K9 so real!

[Bruins fan 4 life]

This is exactly what I'm talking about

Ever notice the better the goal the more replays you see and sometimes the camera angle
is just so perfect..... if not for that certain angle I would have never seen the tip in.

I just finished up a couple of '09 games and it has nowhere near the excitement that 2k brings. I like some of the intricacies of '09 (stick lift, poke check) but I never feel like I'm watching a NHL game. The atmosphere is exactly the same whether I'm playing as Providence or Boston, dull and quiet, and don't even get me going on the 2d paper-doll crowd. As far as their replays, forget it. Like you said 2k nails them for the most part. I enjoy both games for different reasons and 2k is all about hockey atmosphere.

It's this kind of thing that make's 2K9 so real!

Now if 2k can get the player models to look halfway descent we are going to have ourselves a great game with 2k10!

[Flexxer27]

Now if 2k can get the player models to look halfway descent we are going to have ourselves a great game with 2k10!

Well I have to ask what you play/see the game on/with?
I see great graphics in NHL2K9 even scars on the players face's.
Every year it gets a little better which seems now a days is a given.
But there was quite a difference from 2K8 to 2K9 and we all know why.

But if you haven't read this post by me yet.....
http://2ksports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195879
please do so.

AND I to can't wait to see the graphical improvements coming in 2K10!

[Bruins fan 4 life]

Well I have to ask what you play/see the game on/with?
I see great graphics in NHL2K9 even scars on the players face's.
Every year it gets a little better which seems now a days is a given.
But there was quite a difference from 2K8 to 2K9 and we all know why.

But if you haven't read this post by me yet.....
http://2ksports.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195879
please do so.

AND I to can't wait to see the graphical improvements coming in 2K10!

I have read your post and found it to be informative and well presented. When I do finally get around to purchasing an HD Tv (have it in the budget for Christmas this year) I'll keep your tips in mind for game play.

As far as my remarks regarding graphics I think I may have been too cute by half by stating that I hope we have halfway descent player models this year. In specific what I was referring to is the consistent Hunchback of Notre Dame look all of the players seem to possess, and the Casper the Friendly Ghost skin tone some of the players display. I definitely think 2k took a step back this year with the player models, but if the released picture of Ovi and the screen shot from the mo-cap (albeit from a pretty good distance away) are any indication I think I have good cause to be very optimistic for 2k10.

Now the graphics for the peripherals of 2k9 I find to be outstanding (i.e. ice, crowd, rinks, scoreboards, etc...).

[RoadDoggFL]

No offense to anyone, but 2K9 is ugly no matter what TV you're using.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

No offense to anyone, but 2K9 is ugly no matter what TV you're using.

I don't know about that.

I'll grant you that the players are definitely lacking (to put it nicely) but I still think the rest of the game looks very sharp. I know thats like saying "Well Mr. Booth how was the play?" but if they can get the players to be as sharp as their surroundings I think we'll have a the best looking hockey game to date.

[Flexxer27]

In specific what I was referring to is the consistent Hunchback of Notre Dame look all of the players seem to possess, and the Casper the Friendly Ghost skin tone some of the players display. I definitely think 2k took a step back this year with the player models, but if the released picture of Ovi and the screen shot from the mo-cap (albeit from a pretty good distance away) are any indication I think I have good cause to be very optimistic for 2k10.

Thanks for your kind words however I think I understand this Hunchback/ghostly look you speak of but I don't see it, granted I do agree that the players could be a lot crisper for lack of a better word. I used to sell TV's back in the 80's and I was always amazed by the differences between customers visual choices. I put it all down to, "we all see things differently". Here in Toronto the French station had the strongest signal and so you set up your TV's picture/color/tint/tone and so on off that channel, then as you changed to other stations you start to notice great change's but on average you had it as close to real as possible, as for

No offense to anyone, but 2K9 is ugly no matter what TV you're using.

I have to disagree and no offense taken but this brings me back to "we all see things differently". However I believe your talking about bringing up the graphical level of the whole game to what other games look like and that I agree with. I just put 2K9 down as a different graphical style (some what lower in quality) if you will compared to 2K8.

Now the graphics for the peripherals of 2k9 I find to be outstanding (i.e. ice, crowd, rinks, scoreboards, etc...).

This I totally agree with and I understand bringing up the players to match the peripherals is the hope of both of us BUT don't you feel the rinks size seems to be a bit small in relation to the size of the players?

[Bruins fan 4 life]

This I totally agree with and I understand bringing up the players to match the peripherals is the hope of both of us BUT don't you feel the rinks size seems to be a bit small in relation to the size of the players?

Rink to player relationship is definitely askew. Where I notice it the most is when I am trying to work with the puck behind the net (Gretzky's office). Either the players are too big or the rink is too small. It's not a huge thing but it is definitely noticeable.

[stoney0ne]

from ron's weekly update


NHL fans, I know you guys are getting impatient. I was just in a meeting going over the cool stuff we have in store for you this summer. Major stuff needs to be shared with you guys and I am outlining a document of when I am proposing when we should release hardcore news since there's a lot of it. Just a little more patience, your time is coming. In the meantime, going to be doing another NHL 2K9 giveaway later this week so stay tuned to twitter (http://www.twitter.com/Ronnie2K) for that!

[Pharseer12]

from ron's weekly update

Thank you so much for posting that, NHL fans are dying for more info!:)

[stoney0ne]

he knows... i bug him every week for something

[Pharseer12]

he knows... i bug him every week for something

And it is MUCH appreciated! I sometimes don't have time to read all the posts, and probably would have never seen that on his update.

Already Pre-ordered NHL 2K10 based on the COOP ability we have to play against the AI, this is going to be great seeing what the new entry in the franchise is going to be like this year.

[macpuck]

It's hard to imagine how little info we'd have if you DIDN'T bug him ....

[RoadDoggFL]

Probably the same amount.

[macpuck]

No news is not good news.

[VeNOM2099]

We're dyin' here... Hey Ronnie! Where's the beef!?!??

[navarz12]

Could we please have a time frame when we can expect some info please.

[RoadDoggFL]

Could we please have a time frame when we can expect some info please.

Between now and mid-September.

[islesfan12]

Between now and mid-September.


.... if we are lucky! I find it VERY hard to believe that 2K has nothing to tell us, and I bet that when we are notified that some (cough... Big News ... cough) is coming, we will be disappointed with what we hear.

The little bit of information we have now is all well and good, but being left in the dark this long is not good.

Hey; maybe we will all end up with our feet in our mouths and 2K will drop a bomb making everyone VERY excited. there is that hope.

[navarz12]

Between now and mid-September.

Nobody likes a comedian.

How hard can it be to release a time frame with the first real info.a couple of days end of July? A few screen shots would be nice. Not much to ask for.

[stoney0ne]

we are currently in the window of when the info is supposed to begin being realeased

[navarz12]

we are currently in the window of when the info is supposed to begin being realeased

It is one big window.

Even a few screen shots would be nice.

[macpuck]

Sometimes, if you leave a window open too long, things can get away. Like customers.

[stoney0ne]

just saying what i know


i dont disagree


if you notice ron's twitter feed has been dead and to the best of my knowledge he didnt due a update today... im not sure if he is on vacation or what





interesting point..... ncaa 10 came out today.... they had all the marketing in the world.... but a problem with the roster has surfaced.... so despite all that money spent on marketing, 18 hours into the games life and the internet is filled with people cursing EA. so what the hell


my advice.. when you get a really good game... enjoy the hell out of it, because there are no gaurentees in life

[sharks14]

Is NHL 2K10 news supposed to come out this week? It has been this week for the last few years. No blog for today then? I think Ronnie is at the MLB All-Star Game. Maybe he brought some NHL news with him. I have a feeling...

[RoadDoggFL]

Sometimes, if you leave a window open too long, things can get away. Like customers.

Nope, you're not allowed to post anymore. 2K missed your deadline and we are now in the worst-case scenario. Seriously, no more threats or ultimatums because 2K has all but completely ignored you and shown you how it feels about your silly games. You can gloat if 2K10 is a great game that doesn't sell due to lack of advertising but until then, you're just repeating yourself.

[macpuck]

I'd probably respond more fully if I had even the slightest idea what you are (unsuccessfully) attempting to suggest. I don't recall creating a deadline. If 2K has ignored me, personally, I would be very much surprised. I'm fairly certain the people who run 2K do not distinguish me from any of the other unhappy customers (or former customers) who are frustrated by production and marketing shortcomings. If 2k10 proves to be a great game, then I hope a lot of people buy it because that would create a better and more entertaining gaming environment for everybody. I am anxious to see some signs that 2K is headed in a different and more successfull direction. If EA completely dominates the hockey gaming market, I doubt that will prove beneficial for any of us in the long run.

[Flexxer27]

I concur !

[RoadDoggFL]

I'd probably respond more fully if I had even the slightest idea what you are (unsuccessfully) attempting to suggest. I don't recall creating a deadline. If 2K has ignored me, personally, I would be very much surprised. I'm fairly certain the people who run 2K do not distinguish me from any of the other unhappy customers (or former customers) who are frustrated by production and marketing shortcomings. If 2k10 proves to be a great game, then I hope a lot of people buy it because that would create a better and more entertaining gaming environment for everybody. I am anxious to see some signs that 2K is headed in a different and more successfull direction. If EA completely dominates the hockey gaming market, I doubt that will prove beneficial for any of us in the long run.

Don't worry, my suggestion was a huge success.

[macpuck]

You seem quite proud of yourself and so I guess I should be happy for you ,,, although I must admit I still have no idea what you are talking about. And I certainly haven't seen any evidence of a "huge success" around here lately. You seem to be portraying yourself as somebody who speaks, unofficially, for 2K or has some inside knowledge of what is going on ... or not going on. If you really do know something that the rest of us don't know, I sincerely hope that you find a way to express yourself in a more clear and helpfull fashion.

[sharks14]

From Bish at 2Khockey.net:
"Just heard that you'll be seeing some screens and other info next week, and then plenty more moving forward."
:)

[navarz12]

From Bish at 2Khockey.net:
"Just heard that you'll be seeing some screens and other info next week, and then plenty more moving forward."
:)

Very good news.

[Bruins fan 4 life]

from Ronnie's twitter: http://twitter.com/Ronnie2K

NHL fans have been pining... well we're ramping up to get you guys some cool stuff early next week!

[ChrisSousa]

Dam I don't wanna wait ahahah

[macpuck]

"cool stuff" ... now why does that description worry me? I hope we're not bringing the fun back to video hockey again. Instead, I hope 2k has simply created an expanded (more features), more polished, nearly glitch-free video hockey game. Wouldn't that be nice?

[RoadDoggFL]

"cool stuff" ... now why does that description worry me? I hope we're not bringing the fun back to video hockey again. Instead, I hope 2k has simply created an expanded (more features), more polished, nearly glitch-free video hockey game. Wouldn't that be nice?

Because you're just here to complain.

[macpuck]

Such hostility ... such an unhappy Florida Panther. Maybe NHL2k10 will make you a happier person. I certainly hope so.

[RoadDoggFL]

Such hostility ... such an unhappy Florida Panther. Maybe NHL2k10 will make you a happier person. I certainly hope so.

I'm a very happy person. And reasonably happy as a Panthers fan, still (shockingly, lots of drama queens in that crowd, too). Funny that I'm the angry one when you're here to complain and make ultimatums.

[macpuck]

It's okay that you are always in a grouchy mood and critical of others. I can understand and sympathize. I firmly believe that if you stop chewing on those sticks you would get fewer slivers in your mouth and, therefore, tend to be in a better frame of mind. Just a suggestion Panther person.